[Athos]

That would be the question .

The question was about kids getting shots to attend school. Does that violate the right to make medical decisions?

[tomder55]

yes but it depends on the shots you are talking about . A shot for a corona virus would not fall into that category. SCOTUS original decision on mandatory vax was a question if the state has the power to fine for refusal (jacobson v Mass,) . The court then used this case to expand vax mandates for schools in Zucht v King .

I am understanding of the principle of protecting the people when a virus that can be eradicated by a proven effective vaccine becomes mandated . That is not the case with covid . Not only can people vaxed get covid ;they can pass it along . Covid mutates rapidly and the only argument that is made for mandating the vax is the mortality rate . That in school aged kids is a rare event . In fact ;covid mortality is less than 1% among all people .
So your mandates are more about political power than the science .

[Athos]

I am understanding of the principle of protecting the people when a virus that can be eradicated by a proven effective vaccine becomes mandated . That is not the case with covid

In 2021, 99% of the Covid deaths have come from the unvaccinated. Isn't that an argument for its proven effectiveness?

Not only can people vaxed get covid ;they can pass it along

It's true there are breakthrough cases and that they can be transmitted, but they are very rare and very mild when they occur not resulting in hospitalization or death.

Covid mutates rapidly and the only argument that is made for mandating the vax is the mortality rate

That is not the only argument but it is a helluva good one.

That in school aged kids is a rare event

That was true in the beginning, but it is much less true now. Plus kids can pass the virus along to their families. Anyway, should kids health be subject to a gamble?

In fact ;covid mortality is less than 1% among all people

760,000+ dead and growing. Far more than the annual flu. Plus long Covid effects are still unknown. 14%+ infection cases in the US so far. That's almost 50 million people - not a small number. It will diminish as more get vaccinated.

So your mandates are more about political power than the science .

I don't buy the argument that vaccines are more about politics than science. That was Trump's position and even his own Dr. Birx said Trump's lackadaisical attitude was responsible for 200,000 deaths. Other than Trump, it's always been about science.

[jlisenbe]

Anyway, should kids health be subject to a gamble?

You mean like riding in buses, or riding in cars, or not getting the flu vax, or playing on swingsets, or playing with dogs, or riding bikes, or getting a Covid vaccine that is not yet fully vetted?

[tomder55]

NY Giants had 13 positive covid cases Tuesday . When they were RE-tested today only 1 of the coaches tested positive .
Giants had a dozen false positive COVID test results? | Yardbarker

How many false positives were thereon a global level that weren't re-tested, and taken as positive covid cases ?

[tomder55]

“We got vaccines that help you with your health, but they only slightly reduce transmission.” (Bill Gates )

[tomder55]

A unanimous 3 judge panel at the 5th Circuit Court ruled that the vax mandate "grossly exceeds OSHA's statutory authority" and that the mandate "raises serious constitutional concerns."
Biden business vaccine mandate: Court calls requirements 'fatally flawed' (cnbc.com)

The appeals court was responding to several lawsuits challenging the vaccine mandate, including complaints by businesses, employees, and five states (Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, Texas, and Utah), all of which are now consolidated under the heading BST Holdings v OSHA .
Back in 1989 before OSHA was governed by hysterical ninnies they decided that "health in general is an intensely personal matter," and OSHA prefers to encourage, rather than try to force by governmental coercion, employee cooperation in [a] vaccination program.. The same is true when OSHA issued covid recommendations in June .
Federal Register :: Occupational Exposure to COVID-19; Emergency Temporary Standard
It was Quid that decided to go against OSHA recommendations after he had said he would not issue such a mandate .
The court correctly points out that the goal is not public safety as much as the government's desire to ramp up vaccinations by any means necessary .
"After the President voiced his displeasure with the country's vaccination rate in September, the Administration pored over the U.S. Code in search of authority, or a 'work-around,' for imposing a national vaccine mandate. The vehicle it landed on was an OSHA ETS."
The court also concluded that the 5th Circuit says, the ETS "likely exceeds the federal government's authority under the Commerce Clause, because it regulates noneconomic inactivity [i.e., the decision to forgo vaccination] that falls squarely within the States' police power."..... "concerns over separation of powers principles cast doubt over the Mandate's assertion of virtually unlimited power to control individual conduct under the guise of a workplace regulation.".

And that is what all the covid rules have come down to ;government power over the individual in the guise of public safety .

This judicial smackdown is so overwhelming that it’s fair to conclude the Administration gave only passing thought to the law. It acted for political reasons, but even that has proven to be a mistake. The White House panicked amid the Afghanistan fiasco and Delta variant breakout, but it missed how resistant millions of people are to government orders regarding their health.
The mandates have increased political polarization, and they are becoming less popular as people see that the vaccines, while effective, do not prevent infection as well as we might have hoped. They are still worth getting, but it ought to be a personal choice. Mr. Biden chose the progressive default of coercion.
This is typical of his Presidency, and it’s one reason he has sunk in the polls. The Administration says it plans to continue defending the mandate but it will almost certainly lose if a challenge makes it to the Supreme Court. The Covid scourge has given government a political excuse to exceed its legal powers, and it’s vital that the courts rein it in for liberty’s sake.

An Illegal Vaccine Mandate - WSJ

[tomder55]

Sandinista Bill is putting the knife in the back of the fledging NYC economy as a goodby FU

He is doing a private business vax mandate . He says that Omicron is not in NYC yet in any meaningful numbers He is doing the mandate as a preventive .Already 90% of residents have had the jab. But that is not good enough for the dictator. About 184,000 private businesses will now have to enforce his dictate .

And this is a hard mandate .There is no testing provision as an alternative for those who object. He will evidently allow for religious and medical exemptions he sees are valid .

[tomder55]

[tomder55]

In 2020, there were 385,343 COVID deaths .

2021 with the benefit of vaccines and other interventions 404,926 and counting .

[jlisenbe]

Where is the guy on this board who incessantly accused Trump of being responsible for hundreds of thousands of Covid deaths? Does Biden carry any responsibility, or does he get a pass since he's a liberal dem?

[talaniman]

In 2020, there were 385,343 COVID deaths .

2021 with the benefit of vaccines and other interventions 404,926 and counting .

Thats some pretty dishonest math Tom, and seems to be intentionally so, and can you deny the right wing loony noise machine contributes greatly to the continued covid crisis? I guess you have the right to spin facts and reality any way you want, as others can exercise the right to reject your spin.

[jlisenbe]

These are the numbers as of October 6th, so the figures for 2021 would be higher by now.

As of Wednesday, U.S. localities have reported 353,000 deaths since January 1, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University.

That surpasses the 352,000 deaths reported in 2020 in the 10 months following the first recorded domestic outbreaks of the disease in March.

Sure makes Tom's figures look believable, especially considering it comes from Johns Hopkins. I have occasionally disagreed with some of Tom's conclusions, but his data is generally right on.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisad...h=16f188806cc2

[tomder55]

glad to see you here

I got the info right from the CDC .

CDC COVID Data Tracker

and explain how you think that the "right wing loony noise machine contributes" .
Americans are getting vaccinated ....over 200 million fully vaccinated so far . Oh I know the left would love to pin all blame of covid cases on conservatives . But the facts get in the way .

[Wondergirl]

UNITED STATES CASES
Updated Dec 11 at 10:52 AM local

Confirmed
49,846,943

Deaths
796,943

-- Johns Hopkins stats
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu

[tomder55]

Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Illinois, and Indiana are the top six states for increased COVID-19 hospitalizations, together accounting for about 60% of new beds added over the past month.
Blue states lead rise in COVID hospitalizations despite harsh pandemic restrictions | Just The News

[jlisenbe]

Tom said 385,343 COVID deaths for 2020 and 404,926 so far in this year. Add those together and you get 790,269. WG said the total deaths for the two years combined is 796,943. Those two figures are very close, so what justification is there for questioning Tom's data? Just not following that thinking.

[Wondergirl]

Those two figures are very close, so what justification is there for questioning Tom's data? Just not following that thinking.

I'm a librarian and a factchecker. It's worse than tomder posted. Why?

[jlisenbe]

The great likelihood is that his figures came from a little earlier date than yours. But even at that, most people who work with stats realize that a 1% difference is not generally significant. It's a marginal difference not really pertinent to his point which is that deaths in 2021 are higher than the previous year despite the fact that we have the Trump vaccine this year.

[Wondergirl]

I asked "why" -- not about the numbers, but why are deaths so high with all the vaccinating and boostering going on?