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    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #21

    Dec 30, 2021, 08:13 AM
    and who said mission accomplished ? the truth is that tremendous progress was made in an historically short time period . Slavery was and is still a large part of human history .

    May as well keep the WHITE ONLY signs out in public view.
    interesting perspective considering that the progressive woke crowd in more inclined to a resegregated and divided America.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #22

    Dec 30, 2021, 08:38 AM
    And completely ignores that fact that the greatest source of potential progress for non-whites is changing their own behaviors. Not a popular message, but still one that should be heard.

    But otherwise, what specifically remains to be done? All racial invective aside, what specific suggestions would be made?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #23

    Dec 30, 2021, 09:05 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    And completely ignores that fact that the greatest source of potential progress for non-whites is changing their own behaviors. Not a popular message, but still one that should be heard.

    But otherwise, what specifically remains to be done? All racial invective aside, what specific suggestions would be made?
    Voting rights. The key to self governance. Then we can effectively address allocation of resources. That would begin a positive change in behaviors.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #24

    Dec 31, 2021, 04:10 AM
    The flaw in all this revisionism is that 21st century values are attributed to people of the 17th and 18th century. The founding of America propelled the changes . That is the lesson that should be taught .


    Very accurate observation.


    To take this to the next level. I just wonder how future moralists will see an America that practices infanticide?

    To your point about the debt ;how will future historians view our passing on $30 trillion to the next generations to deal with so we can enjoy entitlements and government gimmees ?

    What will they think of the distortion of the Civil Rights movement from equality of opportunity to equality of results ....from an aspiration of a desegregated land to one where sub-identities divide us .....Where we lump all individuals who look alike into caricatures of oppressors and oppressed ?

    What will historians think of an America that has a 60% labor participation rate when there are scores of jobs needing to be filled ?

    What will they say about an America that spends massive amounts in education only to see education levels decline based on standard testing ?

    Maybe they will wonder why it is that if America is so flawed that over 2 million people legally and illegally try to gain entrance and to build a life here every year ?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #25

    Dec 31, 2021, 05:26 AM
    What will they say about an America that spends massive amounts in education only to see education levels decline based on standard testing ?
    My only point of disagreement. NAEP testing, which is the gold standard of testing and has been ongoing for nearly fifty years, shows that scores have risen in that time.

    I would add two. What will they say about an American electorate that has become so foolish as to tolerate this mish-mash of inconsistencies and craziness you have outlined, and what will they say about an America that so casually threw away the foundational underpinnings of any healthy culture which is the two parent family?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #26

    Dec 31, 2021, 05:44 AM
    maybe the decline was more recent compared to long term trends . The articles I read of recent trends were not encouraging .

    Where Are We Going Wrong? New NAEP Scores Show Decline in Reading Proficiency | Lexia Learning

    Long-Term NAEP Scores for 13-Year-Olds Drop for First Time Since Testing Began in 1970s — ‘A Matter for National Concern,’ Experts Say | The 74 (the74million.org)

    And that was happening before covid .My observation is that it is close to a decade decline or stagnation.

    Young Adolescents' Scores Trended to Historic Lows on National Tests. And That's Before COVID Hit (edweek.org)

    NAEP test scores reveal a decade of educational stagnation (hechingerreport.org)


    and what will they say about an America that so casually threw away the foundational underpinnings of any healthy culture which is the two parent family?
    and that could easily be one of the root causes of so many issues today.

    What will future historians say about rampant violent crime as policing is being defunded and redefined ?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #27

    Dec 31, 2021, 05:52 AM
    What is below is math and then reading. For some reason, they have not given the test since 2012 which is strange, but you can see that the trend has been upward until 2020 which was a COVID year. Reading scores are less improved than math, but both have improved in the nearly fifty years since they started.

    Addition. Evidently the test has been given between 12 and 20 but those scores are not reflected on the chart. Don't really know why.

    https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/ltt/?age=9




    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #28

    Dec 31, 2021, 05:57 AM
    This was an interesting observation from one of your articles.

    "The 2017 test was the first time that white students dropped below 50 percent of fourth-grade test takers. Hispanics now account for 26 percent of the fourth-grade population, up from 19 percent 10 years ago. Disproportionately poor, and sometimes not speaking English at home, Hispanics tend to score considerably lower than white students."

    It seems that the test was not given as scheduled for 2016. "The eight-year gap between 2020’s exam and its predecessor, in 2012, is the longest interval that has ever passed between successive rounds of the long-term trend assessment; a round that was originally scheduled for 2016 was nixed for budgetary reasons. Given the length of time between exams and the general trend of increasing scores over multiple decades, observers could have expected to see at least some upward movement."

    Isn't it amazing how we print/borrow money for anything and everything EXCEPT educational testing.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #29

    Dec 31, 2021, 06:04 AM
    having an educated populace goes against the long-term goals of the swamp to make generations of dependents.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #30

    Dec 31, 2021, 06:08 AM
    So very true. Having an educated populace also makes it more difficult to get people to believe the "non-truths" spouted by pols.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #31

    Jan 4, 2022, 10:13 AM
    So anyone who believes the dufus lies is.........what?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #32

    Jan 4, 2022, 12:28 PM
    Anyone who believes the lies of any pol is foolish. Contrary to what you might believe, both parties are given to lying.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #33

    Jan 4, 2022, 01:08 PM
    How does one separate the lies from the truths?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #34

    Jan 4, 2022, 03:43 PM
    A little research. When, for instance, HC claimed she flew into Kosovo under fire and represented herself to be heroic on that account, a little research by some people who valued the truth revealed that to be a wild story. Same thing with the Benghazi attack. Same thing with the Russia hoax. Same thing with the Monica Lewinsky story. All lies.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #35

    Jan 4, 2022, 03:53 PM
    Like, the virus is "like the flu"; it's "totally under control"; it's "disappearing"?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #36

    Jan 4, 2022, 04:39 PM
    Absolutely. Isn't that what we've been saying here? Both parties are quite capable of lying, or at the very least being grossly mistaken. For instance, when a candidate runs on a pledge of shutting down Covid, but then can't even come close to doing it, then he either lied or was grossly mistaken.

    "I'll put in place a plan to deal with this pandemic responsibly, I've already done it. I'm not going to shut down the country, I'm not going to shut down the economy, but I'm going to shut down the virus" Biden promised


    Yet another.

    WASHINGTON — President Biden promised Americans he is making 500 million coronavirus tests available free of charge, but help is at least weeks away — if not longer — for anxious Americans facing a surge of new virus cases.
    Mr. Biden’s administration has not yet signed a contract to buy the tests, and the website to order them will not be up until January. Officials have not said how many tests people will be able to order or how quickly they will be shipped once they begin to be available next month. Manufacturers say they are already producing tests as fast as they can.
    As a candidate, Mr. Biden excoriated the lack of testing during the Trump administration, saying in March 2020 that “the administration’s failure on testing is colossal, and it’s a failure of planning, leadership and execution.” But the Omicron variant caught the White House off guard, as the president has acknowledged, and cases have far outstripped the government’s ability to make tests available.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/22/us/politics/covid-tests-biden-omicron.html
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #37

    Jan 4, 2022, 06:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Absolutely. Isn't that what we've been saying here? Both parties are quite capable of lying, or at the very least being grossly mistaken. For instance, when a candidate runs on a pledge of shutting down Covid, but then can't even come close to doing it, then he either lied or was grossly mistaken.
    I love coming back here and seeing Jl of all people pontificating about the truth. This from a character who thinks the entire human race drowned in a big flood and who thinks snakes can talk.

    It doesn't get much better ...............
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #38

    Jan 4, 2022, 07:27 PM
    I believe the Bible. You don't. Simple equation.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #39

    Jan 4, 2022, 07:29 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I believe the Bible. You don't. Simple equation.
    Nope. You're a literalist. He isn't.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #40

    Jan 4, 2022, 07:42 PM
    That's your take on it. My take is that the two of you believe only the parts that agree with you. The rest gets ignored. You are certainly welcome to your view. You are not welcome, however, to mischaracterize my position.

    But I would probably agree with you on one point. You can be wrong about hell and be right with God. You can disbelieve the first three chapters of Genesis and be right with God. Perhaps you can even allege that Jesus was a homosexual, or that Ruth and Naomi were lesbian lovers, and still be right with God, though that seems to be stretching it. You cannot, however, be wrong on the resurrection, or wrong on the Gospel, and be right with God.

    But I don't want to hijack Tom's post. If you want to move this to another thread, I'll participate there.

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