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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #21

    Sep 6, 2021, 07:23 PM
    Please read the Wikipedia article. I'd c/p, but it Labor Day and I'm resting.
    I wouldn't waste my time doing your bidding. If you have something, then post it. Otherwise, I'll figure you have nothing which is, of course, the truth.

    The question remains. How could Daniel have been changed in the sixteenth century when the copy used for OT translation today dates tenth century? Now I know you would never contradict your idol Athos, but does that really make sense to you?
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #22

    Sep 6, 2021, 07:25 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I wouldn't waste my time doing your bidding. If you have something, then post it. Otherwise, I'll figure you have nothing which is, of course, the truth.
    Wow, not very nice.

    The question remains. How could Daniel have been changed in the sixteenth century when the copy used for OT translation today dates tenth century? Now I know you would never contradict your idol Athos, but does that really make sense to you?
    Another example of your discombobulation. (I like that word - thanks for helping me coin it).
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #23

    Sep 6, 2021, 07:30 PM
    The question remains. How could Daniel have been changed in the sixteenth century when the copy used for OT translation today dates tenth century? Now I know you would never contradict your idol Athos, but does that really make sense to you?


    Another example of your discombobulation. (I like that word - thanks for helping me coin it).
    You are certainly good at nonsense words. Now as to serious answers, well, not so good as your fourth or fifth non-answer illustrates. But here's the question again if it helps any. "The question remains. How could Daniel have been changed in the sixteenth century when the copy used for OT translation today dates tenth century?"

    Have you guys ever noticed how frequently you are reduced to the plea, "Google it yourself"? I have listened to many serious debates, but I've never heard anyone respond with that advice. Wonder why not?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #24

    Sep 6, 2021, 07:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You are certainly good at nonsense words.
    Discombobulation (and its variations) is a word, has been in use since the early 19th century.
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    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #25

    Sep 6, 2021, 07:34 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    9. Priests/ministers/rabbis should be men because Jesus was a dude. No. I've never even heard that one before.


    You've never heard that one before? Really? For someone who acts like an expert on all things Christianity, this is a pretty big admission on your part. Just about everybody knows that many denominations cite this very thing when denying ordination to women. It has been on the front burner for decades in the largest Christian denomination.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #26

    Sep 6, 2021, 07:37 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Have you guys ever noticed how frequently you are reduced to the plea, "Google it yourself"? I have listened to many serious debates, but I've never heard anyone respond with that advice. Wonder why not?
    Because when we quote a source, you spit on us and say it's worthless. If you research it HONESTLY yourself....
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    You've never heard that one before? Really? For someone who acts like an expert on all things Christianity, this is a pretty big admission on your part. Just about everybody knows that many denominations cite this very thing when denying ordination to women. It has been on the front burner for decades in the largest Christian denomination.
    The Lutherans even split in two during the '60s and '70s because of this very thing. Now there's ELCA (women as pastors) and LCMS (only men can be pastors).
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #27

    Sep 6, 2021, 07:45 PM
    You've never heard that one before? Really? For someone who acts like an expert on all things Christianity, this is a pretty big admission on your part. Just about everybody knows that many denominations cite this very thing when denying ordination to women. It has been on the front burner for decades in the largest Christian denomination.
    Never heard of it being related to Jesus being a man. But I'm not Catholic for a variety of reasons. The only claim I make is that I am able to support my claims without resorting to, "You need to Google it."

    Because when we quote a source, you spit on us and say it's worthless.
    You posted one source earlier, and then YOU spit on it. Be honest. So like I said after that, if you want me to read your links, then don't post losers.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #28

    Sep 6, 2021, 07:50 PM
    If you have something, then post it. Otherwise, I'll figure you have nothing which is, of course, the truth.
    Not very nice? It's my constant retort to you two. Has nothing to do with being nice. It has to do with treating topics seriously and wanting everyone who reads these posts to know that you two cannot support your grandiose, bold claims.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #29

    Sep 6, 2021, 07:57 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Not very nice? It's my constant retort to you two. Has nothing to do with being nice. It has to do with treating topics seriously and wanting everyone who reads these posts to know that you two cannot support your grandiose, bold claims.
    We do but you refuse to even consider them. Like you refused to read that terrific blog on what is hell.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #30

    Sep 6, 2021, 08:02 PM
    It came on the heels of the link that you blew up yourself. If you want someone to take time to read your articles, then provide good ones. EVEN BETTER, just provide the answers yourself. Ever notice how infrequently I suggest you go to this or that article? Why not copy and paste the pertinent sections? Do the work yourself instead of asking someone else to do it. And no, that is not meant to be mean.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #31

    Sep 6, 2021, 08:03 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    10. America was founded as a Christian nation. No. To say we were founded on Biblical principles would be closer to the truth.
    Here's another one: Jl says, This nation is founded on Biblical principles. Let's take a look at that one.

    For example, the great laws handed down to Moses - The Ten Commandments.

    1. I am the Lord thy God. No, not that one. The nation purposely left that one out - in fact denied it was a founding principle in the First Amendment.
    2. No carved images. Nope. We have lots of carved images.
    3. Take God's name in vain. Nah. It's not nice but not a founding principle.
    4. Keep holy the sabbath, Nope.
    5. Honor Mom and Dad. Good idea, but not a founding principle.
    6. Do not murder. Yup. There's one - definitely a founding principle, even a law.
    7. Adultery. Never even mentioned as founding principle.
    8. Do not steal. Yes, again.
    9. Do not lie. Well, maybe - especially in a court of law. Partial credit
    10. The coveting business. Actually, the nation's economy is built on coveting. Definitely NOT a founding principle.

    There you have it. Two out of ten - a .200 batting average. Pretty weak.

    The USA is more founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, the era that prospered after the Church lost influence. Those principles were rooted in thousands of years of human civilization including much trial and error.

    Religions certainly helped when they promoted unity and good behavior from the earliest Sumerians to the present day. But they were never the prime mover.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #32

    Sep 6, 2021, 08:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    It came on the heels of the link that you blew up yourself. If you want someone to take time to read your articles, then provide good ones. EVEN BETTER, just provide the answers yourself. Ever notice how infrequently I suggest you go to this or that article? Why not copy and paste the pertinent sections? Do the work yourself instead of asking someone else to do it. And no, that is not meant to be mean.
    I've tried the c/p thing and got shot down. It's never good enough for you, no matter what I do. Only if I post something you agree with is it good enough.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #33

    Sep 6, 2021, 08:10 PM
    " And if you claim not to believe what He said here because you can't find "a recording somewhere", then how do you believe anything He or anyone else in the Bible said?"
    WG, I'd love to see you answer this one.

    Here's another one: Jl says, This nation is founded on Biblical principles. Let's take a look at that one.

    For example, the great laws handed down to Moses - The Ten Commandments.
    You brought up the Ten Commandments, not me. I didn't say we were founded on the Ten Commandments, but on Biblical principles. But bear in mind that just because something is not in law does not mean it is not honored. There was a day when adultery, lying, and dishonoring parents were frowned upon.

    I'm going to start a list of questions you guys are unable or unwilling to answer. I'll work on that tomorrow. There have been several just tonight.

    I've tried the c/p thing and got shot down.

    When?

    It's never good enough for you, no matter what I do. Only if I post something you agree with is it good enough.
    I ask questions and you evade them. You provide links that even you don't agree with. What am I to do with that?
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #34

    Sep 6, 2021, 08:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I didn't say we were founded on the Ten Commandments, but on Biblical principles.
    Please list the Biblical principles this nation is founded on. Be specific.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #35

    Sep 6, 2021, 08:17 PM
    A few just off the top of my head. I would tell you to just google it, but that's your deal and not mine.

    A respect for human life.
    Recognition of property rights
    Right to self defense
    The sanctity of marriage
    The importance of family
    The need for church to be free from govt. interference
    Freedom of religion
    The importance of a fair and efficient system of justice
    The rule of law

    That's a good start.

    Some more material of interest. "The body of the Constitution makes no reference to God. The Constitution honors the Christian Sabbath. The President was given 10 days to sign a bill into law. The counting of the 10 days does not include the Sabbath. This is found in Article 1, Section 7, and Clause 2 which in part follows:“If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law,”

    When the Constitution was completed on September 17, 1787, it was signed by the delegates then to be ratified by the states. The delegates signed the Constitution in the “Year of our Lord.” This is a direct reference to Christianity. This is found in Article 7 which in part follows:"

    http://www.internationalcopsforchris...istian-nation/
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #36

    Sep 6, 2021, 08:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    A few just off the top of my head. I would tell you to just google it, but that's your deal and not mine.

    A respect for human life.
    Recognition of property rights
    Right to self defense
    The sanctity of marriage
    The importance of family
    The need for church to be free from govt. interference
    Freedom of religion
    The importance of a fair and efficient system of justice
    The rule of law

    That's a good start.
    Why don't the citizens respect those principles?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #37

    Sep 6, 2021, 08:24 PM
    Because we are no longer a nation with respect for the Bible. Frankly, we have become like you. We like the parts that agree with us. And again, not mean, but truthful.

    This question so illustrates that. " And if you claim not to believe what He said here because you can't find "a recording somewhere", then how do you believe anything He or anyone else in the Bible said?" You are excited about "unconditional love" which is mentioned nowhere in the Bible, and yet refuse to accept hell which is mentioned throughout the NT. See what I mean? That's not mean or condescending. It's simply a statement you can respond to.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #38

    Sep 6, 2021, 08:32 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Because we are no longer a nation with respect for the Bible. Frankly, we have become like you. We like the parts that agree with us. And again, not mean, but truthful.
    The parts that I like and agree with? So, if I don't believe all of it literally, every word is true, I don't respect the Bible?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #39

    Sep 6, 2021, 08:33 PM
    " And if you claim not to believe what He said here because you can't find "a recording somewhere", then how do you believe anything He or anyone else in the Bible said?" You are excited about "unconditional love" which is mentioned nowhere in the Bible, and yet refuse to accept hell which is mentioned throughout the NT. See what I mean? That's not mean or condescending. It's simply a statement you can respond to.
    Worth repeating.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #40

    Sep 6, 2021, 08:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Worth repeating.
    Agape, God's love, unconditional. Even our Greek scholar who has been fascinated by that language since he was a kid and learned it and Hebrew in college, agreed with that.

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