[jlisenbe]

I didn't "decide" anything. Context did. Translations and lexicons are a starting point, not the end. And they're often wrong.

When a large group of scholars say one thing, and DW says something else, then I'll let you decide who's probably wrong. That's not meant to be ugly, but you are asking a lot for me to believe you when you have no support.

What criteria do you use to decide whether they're right or wrong?

Uhm...I think I just answered that. But I'll add that William Vine and Joseph Thayer do fine for me.

This is a dodge, nothing more. But it's what you do. I'm done here.

And this is what you do. When your position gets tenuous, you disappear.

[Wondergirl]

And this is what you do. When your position gets tenuous, you disappear.

That's what you've done several times.

[jlisenbe]

Never have. Period. But if you can link to it, we can talk about it.

[Wondergirl]

Never have. Period. But if you can link to it, we can talk about it.

Here's one: Post #64, Genuine Attitudes thread
***I leave it with you. Not interested in this type of "discussion".

[jlisenbe]

My position was never tenuous. Your replies just became too far detached from reality. There was no point to it.

"The author's intent was to scare the pants off the reader so that person would give up ungodly ways. Much like a parent who scolds a child for clumsiness or sloppiness with the threat, "If you don't start shaping up and do better than this, you'll end up in hell!"

You might as well have said, "I don't like what Paul said, so I'll just change it to something suitably ridiculous." It is not possible to hold a discussion in that kind of craziness.

[Wondergirl]

My position was never tenuous. Your replies just became too far detached from reality. There was no point to it.

Ah, it was MY fault! I get it!

I thought you had kids and would understand my premise. Oh, well.

[Athos]

It is not possible to hold a discussion in that kind of craziness.

Every so often JL writes something that is so ironically funny it fits him to a "T".

His statement above is one of those things.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON HERE (except his pal Tomder) has one time or another ended any discussion with JL because of the crazy charges, and conclusions, and comments he makes. Tal, clete, WG, myself and now a very calm, very intelligent, and very friendly Biblical scholar Dwashbur who even he has had enough with JL.

Not only funny ha-ha, but funny in a weird way.

[jlisenbe]

I thought you had kids and would understand my premise

I actually understood your premise quite well, far better than you realize.

At any rate, I was referring to DW disappearing for weeks at a time. People can back out of a discussion at any time. These discussion do frequently (always?) end up in an unbreakable headlock and I oftentimes wonder what the point is. No one's mind is ever changed on anything. It's more and more just looking like an utter waste of time.

[Wondergirl]

I actually understood your premise quite well, far better than you realize.

And that premise was?

At any rate, I was referring to DW disappearing for weeks at a time. People can back out of a discussion at any time. These discussion do frequently (always?) end up in an unbreakable headlock and I oftentimes wonder what the point is. No one's mind is ever changed on anything. It's more and more just looking like an utter waste of time.

I've been his friend for years. Plus, you know not of what you speak.

[jlisenbe]

And that premise was?

Paul did not agree with WG, so a completely implausible spin had to be put on his words. No translation even comes close to agreeing with your speculation.

I've been his friend for years.

Fine. I didn't say anything critical of DW in my post to you. I just made the observation that he disappears for weeks at a time which has, in the past, been true.

Plus, you know not of what you speak.

In what way?

[Wondergirl]

Paul did not agree with WG, so a completely implausible spin had to be put on his words. No translation even comes close to agreeing with your speculation.

No speculation. That's what Bible-believing fundamentalist Christian parents do -- quote Paul and Jesus and whoever to scare their naughty kids with the threat of hellfire if they don't shape up. That was Paul's message to us too. As I had said earlier:

"The author's intent was to scare the pants off the reader so that person would give up ungodly ways. Much like a parent who scolds a child for clumsiness or sloppiness with the threat, "If you don't start shaping up and do better than this, you'll end up in hell!"

[jlisenbe]

No speculation. That's what Bible-believing fundamentalist Christian parents do -- quote Paul and Jesus and whoever to scare their naughty kids with the threat of hellfire if they don't shape up.

I've never witnessed that, and I certainly don't think either one of us knows what those, "Bible believing fundamentalist Christian parents" do. I suppose you can comment on what you've seen from the 0.0001% of them you've actually known have done.

That was Paul's message to us too.

There is nothing in the text at all to support that. It's only your prejudices at work. It's just idle (idol?) speculation at work.

Not really sure what the point of all these discussions is. As I said, I don't recall a single occasion where anyone ever changed his or her mind on any topic at all. Maybe you can tell me what purpose all of this back and forth serves.

[Wondergirl]

I've never witnessed that, and I certainly don't think either one of us knows what those, "Bible believing fundamentalist Christian parents" do. I suppose you can comment on what you've seen from the 0.0001% of them you've actually known have done.

I grew up with children of Bible-believing fundamentalist Christians. I often heard that and similar rants.

There is nothing in the text at all to support that. It's only your prejudices at work. It's just idle (idol?) speculation at work.

That was the long-time prevailing threat in most ancient religions -- behave or you're going to hell.

Not really sure what the point of all these discussions is. As I said, I don't recall a single occasion where anyone ever changed his or her mind on any topic at all. Maybe you can tell me what purpose all of this back and forth serves.

Then this website should eliminate any political and religious discussions.

[jlisenbe]

Like I said, I suppose you can comment on what you've seen from the 0.0001% of them you've actually known.

That was the long-time prevailing threat in most ancient religions -- behave or you're going to hell.

But not in the Gospel.

Then this website should eliminate any political and religious discussions.

So it's all pointless.

[Athos]

WG says - Bible believing Christians are threatened with hell

But not in the Gospel.

Did you really say that? Right here in black and white? Amazing!!

YOU are the chief promoter of hell from the Gospels ever seen on thses pages.

[Wondergirl]

Like I said, I suppose you can comment on what you've seen from the 0.0001% of them you've actually known.

100%. Grew up amongst them. NC and rural NY. Spanking, beating, whipping with belt, locked in bedroom or shed, no supper, no talking/conversation....

[jlisenbe]

Like I've said twice now, I suppose you can comment on what you've seen from the 0.0001% of them you've actually known.

[jlisenbe]

I'll also repeat this. Not really sure what the point of all these discussions is. As I said, I don't recall a single occasion where anyone ever changed his or her mind on any topic at all. Maybe you can tell me what purpose all of this back and forth serves.

[Athos]

Maybe you can tell me what purpose all of this back and forth serves.

It goes to expose you for the false belief of Jesus sending people (his creations, humans, sinners, unbelievers - whatever the term du jour is) - for sending these people to hell for eternal punishment.

Since you've been fed that since the cradle, you can't be blamed for believing it, but it's time for you to examine it and not just believe literally whatever is written in the Bible without a careful analysis. If you can't do it, others can do it for you.

[Wondergirl]

I'll also repeat this. Not really sure what the point of all these discussions is.

Why are there discussions during high school and college classes? Why are there discussions at congregational meetings? Why are there family discussions during or after dinner? Why are there discussions by the US Senate and by the House?