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    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #1

    Aug 27, 2021, 11:09 AM
    God of Love
    Where did you get the idea that God was a "God of Love?"

    We've all heard about "the unconditional love of God"...That phrase is not in the Bible.
    That Phrase means: God's love is unconditional, which means therefore he does not judge people. He loves them just as they are so come to him just as you are.

    Neither Jesus nor any of the Apostles ever preached about the love of God in public.

    Check it out in your Bible. You won't find a single example of Jesus or the Apostles, ever preaching about the love of God to unbelievers. The most striking absence is from the book of Acts. The book of Acts is a description of the early church evangelizing, spreading the Gospel, planting Churches. Yet in the whole book of Acts, there isn't a single mention of the love of God...that's not what they preached.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #2

    Aug 27, 2021, 06:36 PM
    Four unique forms of love are found in the Bible -- eros (sensual/romantic love), storge (family love), philia (friend love), and agape (unconditional love).

    John 3:16, for example, refers to God's agape, His divine/unconditional love: "For God so loved the world" -- loved, ēgapēsen

    A much loved and often sung hymn:

    1 Just as I am, without one plea,
    but that thy blood was shed for me,
    and that thou bidd'st me come to thee,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    2 Just as I am, and waiting not
    to rid my soul of one dark blot,
    to thee, whose blood can cleanse each spot,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    3 Just as I am, though tossed about
    with many a conflict, many a doubt,
    fightings and fears within, without,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    4 Just as I am, thou wilt receive,
    wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve; because thy promise I believe,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #3

    Aug 28, 2021, 06:00 AM
    Agape is not generally defined as unconditional love, though I don't know that I would wildly disagree with the idea. But even at that, I don't think that unconditional love is the same as unconditional acceptance.

    Do we find in the words of the wonderful hymn you admirably quoted this recurring theme? "O Lamb of God, I come, I come." So would it not appear that God's acceptance of us is based upon our acceptance of Christ, and our acceptance of Christ is based upon our acceptance of the idea that we are perishing, hopelessly lost sinners in need of a Savior? As the song again said, "to rid my soul of one dark blot, to thee, whose blood can cleanse each spot, O Lamb of God I come, I come." Your scripture, which was another wise choice, has the same theme. God loves everyone, but who is it who will not perish? It would seem to be, "Whosoever believeth in Him."

    Hope the hubster is doing better.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #4

    Aug 28, 2021, 12:15 PM
    Unconditional love of a person = unconditional acceptance of that person. The actions done by that person are not unconditionally accepted.

    Think of your children. Do you stop loving them when they do something bad? No, you still love them but don't accept their bad actions.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #5

    Aug 28, 2021, 12:57 PM
    Unconditional love of a person = unconditional acceptance of that person.
    That is your definition, but I don't think you can defend it from the Bible. And as far as fathers loving children goes, God does not become your Father until you become a Christian. Isn't that what is meant in John 1:12? "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name..."
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #6

    Aug 28, 2021, 01:03 PM
    God is our Father, even before the creation of the world.

    Ephesians 1:
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #7

    Aug 28, 2021, 01:20 PM
    You have no support for your first statement. The Ephesians passage is not a reference to people in general. The key word is the pronoun “us”. It is clearly a reference to the Christians in Ephesus. That puts it in perfect harmony with the John 1 passage.

    Your view has the John 1 passage saying that God gave the children of God the authority to become…the children of God. Huh???
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #8

    Aug 28, 2021, 01:39 PM
    This thread so far is a perfect example of why I don't cherry-pick and toss Bible verses around.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #9

    Aug 28, 2021, 01:41 PM
    I understand. I assure you I do.

    If a person wants to discuss the Bible, then that person needs to know the Bible. When an objection is made, then he or she should be able to respond to it. Now you seem not to like that, so that's fine, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with "cherry-picking" or a person who will "toss Bible verses around". If your beliefs are Biblical, then you should be able to demonstrate that. Not meaning to be critical, but I just am not convinced you can do that. Perhaps I am wrong. I hope so.
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #10

    Aug 28, 2021, 03:19 PM
    Agape is not generally defined as unconditional love.
    I don't know who told you that, but it's wrong. "Unconditional love" is pretty much the dictionary definition. Always has been.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #11

    Aug 28, 2021, 03:32 PM
    Might be, but it's not the lexicon definition, and that's the one that counts. Both of the ones I have say, "love, affection, or benevolence". No mention of unconditional.

    Dictionary.com says this. "the love of God or Christ for humankind.the love of Christians for other persons, corresponding to the love of God for humankind, unselfish love of one person for another without sexual implications; brotherly love."

    Again, no mention of unconditional.

    Mirriam Webster also made no mention of the love being "unconditional". Kind of strange considering that it, " Always has been."

    Various translations of the word "agape" or its verb form.
    KJV: Charity, charity, dear, love's, love, Love NAS: beloved, feasts, love's, love, Love HCS: with love, at how great a love, the love, love, love feasts, Love, and love, your love, put on love, is love, loves, of love ESV: with love, [It], love [is], [put on] love, [and] love, love, love feasts, Love, beloved, you love, [the] love, from [His] love, of love, [your] love, [And] love, to love, I love you BSB: beloved, love, Love WEB: the, know love, of the love, the love, in your love, love, Let love, Love, your love, *, walk in love, is love, own love, in love, does the love, of love.
    Still no mention of unconditional.

    Check it out in your Bible. You won't find a single example of Jesus or the Apostles, ever preaching about the love of God to unbelievers. The most striking absence is from the book of Acts. The book of Acts is a description of the early church evangelizing, spreading the Gospel, planting Churches. Yet in the whole book of Acts, there isn't a single mention of the love of God...that's not what they preached.
    I haven't checked this out yet, but if true, then that is really surprising. Walter, you have raised a fascinating point.

    Well, checked it out. The word "love" is used nowhere in the NAS translation of Acts. Not a single usage. Wow. I'm amazed.
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #12

    Aug 29, 2021, 06:03 PM
    If you read your Bible you might find that; every mention of the love of God is addressed to those who've already been redeemed by God, from Slavery. Either slavery in Egypt by pharaoh or slavery unto sin under Satan. But only those who've been redeemed...rescued from Slavery by God, talk about the love of God to each other. So that in the old testament Jews only talked about the love of God to Jews...and in the new testament Christians only talked about the love of God to Christians. It was an "in subject". Only those who've been redeemed by God can understand his love, that others really don't have enough understanding to grasp what God's love really is until they've been rescued themselves and redeemed. Neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever preached about the love of God to unbelievers.

    Do you want to know how many times "the Love of God" is mentioned in the entire Bible?
    I think it's something like 1 verse in 1,000, which refers to "the Love of God."
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #13

    Aug 29, 2021, 06:12 PM
    waltero, you dare to limit God so much??? I weep!
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #14

    Aug 29, 2021, 08:52 PM
    If you read your Bible you might find that; every mention of the love of God is addressed to those who've already been redeemed by God, from Slavery
    How about John 3:16? Also Romans 5:8. "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." This passage in Mt. 5 so strongly implies it that it cannot be overlooked. "“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

    Neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever preached about the love of God to unbelievers.
    Again, John 3:16 and Romans 5:8.
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #15

    Aug 31, 2021, 11:42 AM
    Romans 5:8. "But God shows his love for us
    preaching about the love of God to unbelievers.???
    Mt. 5 so strongly implies it that it cannot be overlooked. "“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.
    Who is the Father of the Unbelievers...is he talking to you???
    Either way, this does not include "the love of God."

    How about John 3:16?
    We use it primarily as a gospel text. I'm sure you know the cliche; a text out of context is a pretext.  unfortunately, it can also be used as a proof text. Once-the Bible was divided up into chapters and verses and each verse was given a number, we begin to treat the Bible as a box full of proof texts and think that if we can find one text that says what we want it to say that we've given proof from the Bible about a particular view or position, and John 3:16 has been used like that...out of context. 

    I'm still searching. I don't know where to begin. But I am certain that the Love of God belongs to the Redeemed.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #16

    Aug 31, 2021, 12:15 PM
    preaching about the love of God to unbelievers.???
    Read the entire text. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." There is a hint of dishonesty when you only PARTIALLY quote the text. Don't go there. Paul is very clearly saying that God's love was exhibited when Christ died for sinners.

    Who is the Father of the Unbelievers...is he talking to you???
    Either way, this does not include "the love of God."
    Read more carefully. Jesus is referring to the Father of we Christians, but that he blesses the unjust as well as the just. Isn't that love in action? At any rate, I did not say it included the love of God, but that it "implied" the love of God.

    John 3:16. Who does it say God loved? Please don't get evasive and go down the "context" path without explaining how context would do away with God loving "the world". You are starting to sound like people on this site you don't want to sound like.

    Being "right" is not the goal. Being truthful is the goal.
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #17

    Aug 31, 2021, 12:36 PM
    Read the entire text.
    Yes, if you read the entire text you will clearly see that he is talking to fellow Christians.

    John 3:16. Who does it say God loved?
    It goes much deeper than you think. I'm still trying to grasp it myself.

    Everybody knows John 3:16, but they never heard of the verse before or after 3:16? We've stopped searching the bible because now we can just look it up. You don't like long-winded threads, I was trying to keep it short and simple.

    John 3:16 is in reference to; Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #18

    Aug 31, 2021, 12:44 PM
    Yes, if you read the entire text you will clearly see that he is talking to fellow Christians.
    When did God express His love to them? When they were Christians, or when they were sinners?

    It goes much deeper than you think. I'm still trying to grasp it myself.

    Everybody knows John 3:16, but they never heard of the verse before or after 3:16?
    You are being evasive. Who does it say God loved???

    TRUTH, Walter. TRUTH!!!
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #19

    Aug 31, 2021, 12:55 PM
    When did God express His love to them? When they were Christians, or when they were sinners?
    So that in the old testament Jews only talked about the love of God to Jews...and in the new testament Christians only talked about the love of God to Christians.


    Who does it say God loved???
    Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him...thats who!
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #20

    Aug 31, 2021, 01:08 PM
    You did not answer the question. In the Romans 5 passage, were they sinners when God expressed His love to them? Clearly they were.

    Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him...thats who
    Dear Walter, you are disgracing yourself. John 3:16 clearly says that "God so loved the world". Who? "The world."

    Another one. How about the rich young ruler? He was clearly not a Christian.

    18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”
    20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
    21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”



    Hey, Walter. A thought just hit me. How do you define, "the love of God"? Maybe that is where we are missing each other. What is your definition of the term?

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