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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #21

    Jul 2, 2021, 09:35 AM
    1. You believe it was an allegory but you don't know the moral message? Hmmm.
    2. Read the story of Moses. Read about how he met daily with God. What do you suppose they talked about?
    3. It's so all over the internet that you can't post a single instance.
    4. I don't do research to verify your questionable assertions. That's your job. In fact I would suggest to you or anyone to not post assertions for which you have no support. Have that support ahead of time.

    I think I understand our problem. I know what my authority is. It is the Bible. Now you don't accept that, and that's fine. It's your privilege. But I do wonder what your authority is. In other words, what has the right to disagree with you and yet be accepted by you. Athos believes A, but his authority says B, so Athos accepts B. Other than your own opinion, what is your authority?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #22

    Jul 2, 2021, 09:55 AM
    Great statement of truth by Augustine.

    “If you believe what you like in the Gospel, and reject what you don't like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself.”

    Here's more of the same !!!! Don't you love it? This is his spewing Bible verses that he offers as proof. Note that this particular verse never mentions a thing about hell and/or eternal punishment. To "die in your sins" seems pretty final.
    Well, we'll do this again. It's about the fifth time. It's by no means an exhaustive list, but it's certainly far more than sufficient. Sufficient, that is, for those who accept the NT.


    1. Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
    2. Matthew 5:22. “But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.”
    3. Matthew 8:11,12. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    4. Matthew 10:28. “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
    5. Matthew 13:30. (This is the conclusion of the parable of the wheat and tares.) “Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.”
    6. Matthew 13:49,50. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
    7. Matthew 18:8. “It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.”
    8. Matt. 25:31-48. This lengthy passage clearly sets forth the existence of a fiery hell. The people sent to hell were judged, not for what they did, but for what the neglected to do. The inference is that Christ was not Lord.
    9. Mark 8:38. “If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
    10. Luke 3:17. “His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
    11. Luke 13:2. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
    12. Luke 16:19ff. “In Hades, where he (the rich man) was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’”
    13. Acts 24:15. “and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.” Again, not a reference to hell, but the teaching of a resurrection “of both the righteous and the wicked,” would certainly agree with such a reference.
    14. Colossians 3:5,6. Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.
    15. 1 Thessalonians 1:10. “Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.”
    16. 1 Thessalonians 5:9. “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
    17. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10. “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our LORD Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the LORD and from the glory of his might…”
    18. 2 Peter 2:4ff. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment… if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.
    19. Jude 7. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
    20. Rev. 20:11ff. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
    21. Psalm 21:8-9. You will capture all your enemies. Your strong right hand will seize all who hate you. You will throw them in a flaming furnace when you appear. The LORD will consume them in his anger; fire will devour them.


    The following scriptures show God as the one who is coming to judge the earth.


    1. Hebrews 9:27. “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment…” Another reference to a coming day of judgement.
    2. 2 Corinthians 5:10,19,20. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 19 God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.2 Timothy 4:1. I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
    3. Hebrews 6:2. Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of…the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
    4. Rev. 1:18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
    5. 1 Peter 1:17. Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.
    6. 1 Peter 4:5. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
    7. Genesis 18:25. Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?”
    8. Hebrews 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    9. John 8:24 “I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.” What a powerful statement concerning the necessity of faith in Christ.
    10. Acts 24:25. “As Paul talked about righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid…” This text is not a reference to hell itself but does point out the coming judgement of which everyone should be aware.
    11. Rev. 20:11ff. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
    12. Matthew 12:36. But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. 37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #23

    Jul 2, 2021, 10:53 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    1. You believe it was an allegory but you don't know the moral message? Hmmm.
    Where did you get that from? I didn't say a word about the moral message. Bad habit - putting words in the mouth of others. Will you ever learn?

    2. Read the story of Moses. Read about how he met daily with God. What do you suppose they talked about?
    Now you're saying God briefed Moses daily on the creation. How did God explain two differing accounts of creation? Or did Moses make that up?

    3. It's so all over the internet that you can't post a single instance.
    It would be much more fruitful for you to read it yourself. You'll get much more out of it.

    4. I don't do research to verify your questionable assertions.
    Your choice, your loss.

    That's your job.
    No, it's your job, if you really want to know. If you're just trolling, then never mind.

    In fact I would suggest to you or anyone to not post assertions for which you have no support.
    You're wrong. Assertions may have posted support or not - depends on the complexity and length of what is being asserted. Sometimes unposted support can be provided by a link, but you have already declared your refusal to learn that way. Other times assertions come from sources that can't be posted. For instance, you claimed to be a school principal, but you never posted support for your assertion.

    I think I understand our problem. I know what my authority is. It is the Bible. Now you don't accept that, and that's fine. It's your privilege. But I do wonder what your authority is.
    Let's go even deeper. HOW have you come to accept the authority of the Bible? You did it by reading, listening, maybe home life, church, considering, thinking, and all the ways humans arrive at decisions. So your ACTUAL authority is rooted in your mind/brain/intellect/experiences. So is mine.

    Here's the difference. For whatever reason, you stopped the thought process by accepting the literalness of the Bible. Most Christians did NOT stop there. They continued to read, think, experience, analyze, and consider as they grew in age, wisdom and faith.

    This is very apparent when you are unable to explain WHY you believe except to say "The Bible told me so". We see this from you all the time when you offer Bible verses instead of your own well-thought-out responses using your God-given mind.

    In other words, what has the right to disagree with you and yet be accepted by you. Athos believes A, but his authority says B, so Athos accepts B.
    I don't think I understand this. A concrete example would help.

    Other than your own opinion, what is your authority?
    Think about that. What other opinion could there be except one's mind, intellect, brain - aka, "opinion" in the strict sense?

    You do the same thing. But you have decided (using your mental faculties) to stop the process by placing the Bible as written in front of your brain. I haven't. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US - THE PROBLEM, AS YOU PUT IT.


    I see you've posted some Bible verses. I'll get to it. But first, I need a break.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #24

    Jul 2, 2021, 11:05 AM
    1. Allegories have moral meanings. Simple concept.
    2. You make assertions...you back them up. Your job. I have no intention of going down some endless rabbit trail.
    3. First answer the question. What is your source of authority?
    4. An example? Well, I believe that God is all love, but then I read that He is also a God of justice, so I must adjust my thinking.
    5. What other opinion could there be except one's mind? Really? You think there is no opinion other than your own? Wow. There is a vast difference between using mental faculties and judging one's own opinions to be the sum of knowledge. Perhaps I misunderstood you.

    Yes. A break would be good. Tomorrow.
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    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #25

    Jul 2, 2021, 11:47 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    1. Allegories have moral meanings. Simple concept.
    Allegory does not mean the same thing as moral. Couldn't be simpler. Again, look the words up.

    2. You make assertions...you back them up. Your job.
    You must have missed this.

    Assertions may have posted support or not - depends on the complexity and length of what is being asserted. Sometimes unposted support can be provided by a link, but you have already declared your refusal to learn that way. Other times assertions come from sources that can't be posted. For instance, you claimed to be a school principal, but you never posted support for your assertion. [/QUOTE]

    I have no intention of going down some endless rabbit trail.
    What you are REALLY saying is, "I don't want answers that I don't like". None of us do, but grown-ups learn to face facts.

    3. First answer the question. What is your source of authority?
    Did you miss this one, too?

    Let's go even deeper. HOW have you come to accept the authority of the Bible? You did it by reading, listening, maybe home life, church, considering, thinking, and all the ways humans arrive at decisions. So your ACTUAL authority is rooted in your mind/brain/intellect/experiences. So is mine.

    Here's the difference. For whatever reason, you stopped the thought process by accepting the literalness of the Bible. Most Christians did NOT stop there. They continued to read, think, experience, analyze, and consider as they grew in age, wisdom and faith.

    This is very apparent when you are unable to explain WHY you believe except to say "The Bible told me so". We see this from you all the time when you offer Bible verses instead of your own well-thought-out responses using your God-given mind.


    If you're not going to read what I write, this whole exercise becomes pointless.

    4. An example? Well, I believe that God is all love, but then I read that He is also a God of justice, so I must adjust my thinking.
    You did not continue to believe what you had believed. In your own words, you made an ADJUSTMENT.

    5. What other opinion could there be except one's mind? Really? You think there is no opinion other than your own?
    NO, no, no. There is no opinion IN MY MIND other than the opinion that is there. Can there be other opinions outside my mind? Of course, there can. If I believe one of those, then THAT opinion becomes the one IN MY MIND. The simplest things can sometimes be hard to explain.

    Perhaps I misunderstood you.
    You sure did. Let me try to put it another way. I believe whatever it is that my mind has led me to believe. It can't possibly be otherwise. Can I change (ADJUST!) my belief? Of course, I can. It is still my mind that has led me to my new belief.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #26

    Jul 2, 2021, 12:10 PM
    This is what I hate about these discussions. When your allegory has no moral, then you deny that allegories have morals. Incredible. "a story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a hidden meaning, typically a moral or political one." If that is not true, then what on earth is the purpose of an allegory?????

    Let's go even deeper. HOW have you come to accept the authority of the Bible? You did it by reading, listening, maybe home life, church, considering, thinking, and all the ways humans arrive at decisions. So your ACTUAL authority is rooted in your mind/brain/intellect/experiences. So is mine.
    Utter nonsense. Try that in a court of law. "Your Honor, the defendant is innocent because my mind/brain/intellect/experiences say so." You'd be thrown out in two seconds. It's that we realize that our own views can frequently be wrong due to a lack of knowledge that we appeal to higher sources. You admit it above when you say I should be doing research to back up your assertions. It's an obvious admission that we are all subject to error. Good grief. Even worse, you are saying that your source of authority is...Athos!

    You sure did. Let me try to put it another way. I believe whatever it is that my mind has led me to believe. It can't possibly be otherwise. Can I change (ADJUST!) my belief? Of course, I can. It is still my mind that has led me to my new belief.
    True enough. That being the case, you appeal to something other than your own powers of reasoning in your search for truth.

    So aside from your own ideas, is there anything outside of you that can settle an argument?

    You did not continue to believe what you had believed. In your own words, you made an ADJUSTMENT.
    Exactly. And why? Because I was confronted with that which is higher than I am.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #27

    Jul 2, 2021, 12:37 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    1. Allegories have moral meanings. Simple concept.
    What then is the moral* of (I'd use the words "overriding or bigger truth in") the Creation allegory in Genesis 1?

    *a lesson, especially one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, a piece of information, or an experience.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #28

    Jul 2, 2021, 12:56 PM
    I don't see it as an allegory, so that question does not apply to my position, but it does to yours. Can you answer it?

    And having asked that, I already suspect a forthright answer will not be forthcoming, but hopefully I am wrong.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #29

    Jul 2, 2021, 01:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I don't see it as an allegory, so that question does not apply to my position, but it does to yours. Can you answer it?
    This wondrous universe, including every non-living and living thing, was created by our loving God in six days -- or maybe in six minutes or maybe even in only six seconds. The method and length of time don't matter. All that matters is that He created because He's a God of unconditional Love.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #30

    Jul 2, 2021, 01:52 PM
    Why does it have to be an allegory to get that meaning?

    Would you also say that man chooses to fall prey to temptation and thus is a sinner by nature?
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #31

    Jul 2, 2021, 02:08 PM
    BTW, thank you for the wonderfully straightforward answer!!
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #32

    Jul 2, 2021, 02:15 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Why does it have to be an allegory to get that meaning?
    What really happened? We don't know, so we tell a story, create an allegory to explain to others who did what, when, how, and why (implied).
    Would you also say that man chooses to fall prey to temptation and thus is a sinner by nature?
    I sin daily. Do you?
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #33

    Jul 2, 2021, 02:19 PM
    What really happened? We don't know,
    Why do you say we don't know?

    Sin daily? Why, I NEVER sin!! (sarcastic in the extreme)
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #34

    Jul 2, 2021, 02:34 PM
    WG: What really happened? We don't know,

    jlisenbe: Why do you say we don't know?
    Tell me! Tell me! What really happened???
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #35

    Jul 2, 2021, 02:42 PM
    What it says.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #36

    Jul 2, 2021, 02:47 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    What it says.
    No. what REALLY happened!!!
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #37

    Jul 2, 2021, 02:50 PM
    What it says.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #38

    Jul 2, 2021, 02:55 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    What it says.
    I wouldn't create that way. Certainly God wouldn't either. Plus, the story is an allegory, written by a human.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #39

    Jul 2, 2021, 03:07 PM
    I wouldn't have done it that way either, but then you and I are both titanically stupid and ignorant compared to Him, so maybe He knows better than us? Just possible???
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #40

    Jul 2, 2021, 03:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I wouldn't have done it that way either, but then you and I are both titanically stupid and ignorant compared to Him, so maybe He knows better than us? Just possible???
    Nope, He told me that wasn't how it got done. He had (and still uses) a more interesting method.

    The REAL question is WHY did He create anything.

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