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    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #41

    Jun 24, 2021, 05:42 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life View Post
    I love you too.
    Instead of trying to be cute, try to answer the points I made in post # 36.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Funny to see Athos complaining about a lack rational answers.
    Instead of your typical meanness and stalking, provide rational answers to what I posted in # 36 - if you can.

    Quote Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    Funny indeed.
    Go away.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #42

    Jun 24, 2021, 05:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    read about this arrested " insurrectionist " .

    FBI tears New Yorker's life into shreds: Devine (nypost.com)
    If the story is true, the FBI acted terribly and should be brought to account.

    However, the NY POST is hardly known for Trumpian accuracy, and the victim's comment that "there was no riot" is laughable.
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    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #43

    Jun 24, 2021, 07:30 PM
    The raid is confirmed in other sources if you bother to look instead of just attacking the source

    and of course it has nothing to do with his dispute with Dana Lowey Luttway, who is the daughter of former New York Congresswoman (D) Nita Lowey over renovations she did in the neighborhood. An anonymous neighbor claims he was bragging about being there . (pure speculation on my part about the connection . Luttway's company was fined multiple times during the renovations and was subject to stop work orders because they were a nuisance )
    Congresswoman's Daughter Bickers With Neighbors Over 3-Year Home Renovation - Upper West Side - New York - DNAinfo
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #44

    Jun 24, 2021, 09:03 PM
    Go away
    Awe, and I thought we were friends. You're not very nice. I like it here, this place is fun. Maybe you could relax a bit, take a breather. Now go to your room! Momma Didn't Raise You To Act This Way
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #45

    Jun 24, 2021, 09:31 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    The raid is confirmed in other sources if you bother to look instead of just attacking the source
    I hardly need to look for other sources of the raid. My point is the victim's credibility when he said "there was no riot".
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #46

    Jun 24, 2021, 09:48 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    Momma Didn't Raise You To Act This Way
    Did your momma raise you to lie about your age? Or hide behind a nickname?

    Did your momma raise you to preach long-winded sermons here that even your co-religionists need to have clarified, and nobody else can understand?

    Why are you here? You contribute almost nothing to whatever the discussion is. You couldn't even give a coherent response to the issues raised in my post.

    Time for you to clear up that confusion in your head.
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #47

    Jun 24, 2021, 11:28 PM
    Did your momma raise you to lie about your age?
    I thought we were using the 50 is the new 20 rule?
    Or hide behind a nickname?
    My nickname makes me who I am, and I will forever love being "Waltero.
    Did your momma raise you to preach long-winded sermons here?
    How long should the sermon series be? The Truly Abundant Life is Meant to Be Lived in the Larger Story.
    That even your co-religionists need to have clarified?
    Enquiring minds want to know.
    And nobody else can understand?
    No harm, no foul...being that nobody else could understand the Topic (John 12:20)anyway...including you.
    Why are you here?
    because this is an open forum, and I seek knowledge. Thought I'd see what the educated folks had to say. You contribute almost nothing I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you.
    To whatever the discussion is
    . Ask your momma what it is.
    You couldn't even give a coherent response to the issues raised in my post.
    It's not always about you.
    Time for you to clear up that confusion in your head
    If only I had a Brain!
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #48

    Jun 24, 2021, 11:41 PM
    This is never about us, but our response to the issues. Some responses are superficial, some provide knowledge and some have nothing to do with the thread, ah well, I don't get it, it isn't as though your own thread costs money
    InfoJunkie4Life's Avatar
    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,409, Reputation: 81
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    #49

    Jun 25, 2021, 12:24 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    These are not even close to the Jan 6 insurrection.
    Different, yes. Do you want to rank order them? What are your criteria? Does that criteria stand in all circumstances? How is this the worst since the civil war?

    I keep hearing the mouthpieces saying stuff like this, what is Biden's justification for comparing this event to the Civil War where more than half a million people died, and our country was literally ripped apart? How many on the political left rank Jan 6 with 9/11? We have 3000 dead and wars on wars as consequences from one, do the consequences of the other carry the same weight? Arnold Schwarzenegger ranks this with the Kristallnacht which brought sweeping destruction and put more than 30,000 men into concentration camps. Anderson Cooper thinks this is the same as the Rwandan and Bosnian genocides.

    Pearl Harbor, al Qaeda, terrorists, the list goes on.

    Maybe my comparisons were off base by severity, as January 6th can only be ranked amongst the worst acts of human indignation. How about you tone down the rhetoric, unless it is your goal to smear and villainize and silence dissenters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    they will sell their soul for anything supporting their politics
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    Christian evangelists are so devious
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    white supremacist domestic terrorism
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    threaten a takeover of the nation
    Very strong words my friend.
    InfoJunkie4Life's Avatar
    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,409, Reputation: 81
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    #50

    Jun 25, 2021, 02:00 AM
    Athos, as for your Post #36:

    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
    No one is claiming there was no crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    You're very wrong there. At least one Republican....
    Let me clarify: "no one" here, in this discussion.

    The next few comments regarding Post #30...mostly vile assumptions about me. This was an attempt to clarify some facts not clearly stated prior. Let me explain in simpler terms.

    Point 1: You used Michael Sherwin in Post #21, #28 as an authoritative source to prove the extreme nature of the crimes of the rioters, even as you refuse to accept other sources that show that the judges involved feel quite different. My quote of Michael Sherwin is an authoritative source that Michael Sherwin could care less about actual crimes and would rather send a message using the full weight of the law. Intent matters. I also might point out that the judges and lawyers involved in these cases would have an intimate knowledge of the individual cases and have the proper authority to adjudicate these crimes and assess the risk involved with these individuals.

    Point 2: Sarcastic remarks about Kamala's Bail Fund, not whataboutism, but rather evidence to illustrate the hypocrisy of those who support violence when it aligns with their ideology while condemning violence that does not align with their ideology.

    Point 3: A list of current charges of those involved in the January 6 riot. I believe regularly updated. This is simply a source we can use to enhance our discussion.

    -It was asserted in Post #2 that white supremacist domestic terrorism was involved. No such charges were found in this list related to terrorism or any sort of hate crimes.

    -It was asserted in Post #6 that arrests were mostly for trespassing. Can't search by that criteria, however, I believe this to be true. Using the find function on my browser I noted 266 instances of "Entering and Remaining in a Restricted Building" charges, 186 instances of "Parading, Demonstrating, or Picketing in a Capitol Building" charges, and 144 instances of "Remaining in any Restricted Building or Grounds Without Lawful Authority" charges (Probably the same people, multiple charges). I also believe this lacks context as nearly all of those charges are accompanied by other charges as well. I was too lazy to write a whole post on this and do a study on the relevancy of the charges with the summary of events that lead to these charges.

    -It was asserted in Post #16 that "Even fewer than that got violent," and Post #19 "500 so far is 'fewer that got violent.'" There are only 73 instances of an "Act of Physical Violence" in this list.

    -Post #19 also asserts "500+ men (more like 1,000+ men), variously armed, attacked the United States Capitol" and Post #23 states "But 23 people have been charged with having deadly or dangerous weapons during the assault — including a loaded handgun found on a man arrested on Capitol grounds" while the list corroborates 116 instances of "Deadly or Dangerous Weapon."

    This link can bring clarity to this discussion.

    Point 4: 25 people on the list had nothing to do with the riot, they were violating curfew, with no other charges brought. Less than 5% of those arrested.

    Point 5: There are a fair number of people who are being given leniency because they did nothing more than enter and leave.

    Point 6: There are a fair number of people who are being given leniency because they committed nothing more than petty theft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    Wrong again, what is up for debate is why the Republicans voted down an investigation into the "crime of the century".
    You must understand something about politics. There are seldom good actors, neither on the left nor the right. Most politicians are self serving.

    This particular commission is an attempt to root out failures within the federal government as related to the January 6 attack. In reality, the republicans are afraid it would be a club wielded by liberal media, government leaks, and others on the left side of the isle to smack them with, non-stop, until the 2022 midterms. It is also true that the House of Representatives have already launched an investigative subcommittee, while the Senate has 2 separate investigations, the latest of which was released on June 8th. All of this is ongoing while the FBI, DoJ and other departments conduct their own internal and external investigations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    As to the "foul language", the media covered it exactly for what it was - a right-wing insurrection incited by madman Trump. When you see the truth as foul language, you have a problem.
    I see the truth as somewhere between hyperbole and denial. The media are self serving also, they ratchet up the language when it suits them; they ignore things when it suits them; they downplay whatever suits them. Turn off CNN and do some real research.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    You're deflecting. A typical tactic of the right-wing. Aka "whataboutism" as if the one excuses the other.
    See previous statement about hypocrisy.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunke4Life
    One might even argue the media is responsible for creating such an atmosphere where violence is lauded and the left wing political class for encouraging these while failing to enforce laws that would have put an end to such nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    No, only an idiot would make such an argument, and you fit the bill.
    It is incredibly hard to engage with someone who refuses to analyze and rebut rational arguments. If it is so wrong, try attacking the argument.
    InfoJunkie4Life's Avatar
    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,409, Reputation: 81
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    #51

    Jun 25, 2021, 02:49 AM
    That final bit brings us back to Chicago.

    The leaders there continually assert that they have a gun problem. From Rahm Emanuel to Lori Lightfoot (and even Joe Biden), they see gun control as a proper remedy to the criminal element of their city. Their gun legislation has not helped one bit. So they blame gun dealers and neighboring states for disseminating the weapons. The trouble is, most of the guns recovered in Chicago are from Illinois, and after investigating them, the ATF rarely busts a FFL dealer. They did nothing wrong. The guns are generally stolen or purchased off the black market.

    The real problem is policy.

    Criminals are routinely let out of jail early or given lesser sentences just to go on committing crimes.

    Prosecution of weapons related charges is falling continually. From 2005 to 2016, these prosecutions fell by almost 35%.

    In 2016 Chicago only had 15 attorneys dedicated to violent crime. Lack of proper resources.

    Most gun crime convictions are given the lowest possible sentence.

    With constant defund the police rhetoric and racism rhetoric, the powers that be, think it is better to let criminals walk that to arrest too many individuals of a specific minority. Many on the left see criminals as disconnected from their actions, rather, a product of their environment. Thus America is to blame, not the felons.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #52

    Jun 25, 2021, 03:39 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life View Post
    Maybe my comparisons were off base by severity
    They were off base making a comparison to an attempt to overthrow the duly elected government of the US.

    How about you tone down the rhetoric,
    YOU started the rhetoric with, "Athos, you are an idiot". Does your outrage apply to yourself, or just to others?

    unless it is your goal to smear and villainize and silence dissenters.
    My goal is to tell the truth based on facts. Your goal is to support an ideology led by Trump regardless of facts.

    Very strong words
    You meant, "Very truthful words".
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #53

    Jun 25, 2021, 03:57 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life View Post
    That final bit brings us back to Chicago.
    This seems to be addressed to me. I have not made any comment or post about Chicago.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #54

    Jun 25, 2021, 04:41 AM
    "Gun control" is their only answer ;although during his speech Wednesday Quid actually said that cities with extra covid bucks should invest in their police forces .That is a concession that the year long defund the cops effort has been an unmitigated disaster .His emphasis on so called "assault weapons " is completely irrelevant to the crime way that is hitting America's cities.

    Getting ILLEGAL guns off the streets worked in NYC under Rudy and nanny-Bloomy . But that requires more policing not less. It appears based on primary results that NYC is looking for a return to sanity .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #55

    Jun 25, 2021, 04:46 AM
    I keep hearing the mouthpieces saying stuff like this, what is Biden's justification for comparing this event to the Civil War where more than half a million people died, and our country was literally ripped apart? How many on the political left rank Jan 6 with 9/11? We have 3000 dead and wars on wars as consequences from one, do the consequences of the other carry the same weight? Arnold Schwarzenegger ranks this with the Kristallnacht which brought sweeping destruction and put more than 30,000 men into concentration camps. Anderson Cooper thinks this is the same as the Rwandan and Bosnian genocides.
    Well said, Info. The 1/6 event is now largely being used for political consumption. Thus we see the allegations of "white supremacists" on a rampage of destruction and insurrection, all of which is wild conjecture. On the basis of damage to the country, I would rate the Ferguson riots as more destructive.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #56

    Jun 25, 2021, 05:42 AM
    The next few comments regarding Post #30...mostly vile assumptions about me
    Post # 30 is yours, not mine, and, obviously, I made no vile assumptions about you in your own post.

    Point 1. Yoiu used Michasel Sherwin in Post #21, #28 as an authoritative source to prove the extreme nature of the crimes of the rioters,
    I agree with Michael Sherwin who is an authoritative source. The only actual trial so far has resulted in a guilty verdict. A minor offense, it a is a harbinger of more serious charges in the future to be tried.

    even as you refuse to accept sources that show that the judges involved feel quite different.
    Do you accept sources that show the judges involved to feel otherwise than your judges? No, I thought not.

    Point 2: Sarcastic remarks about Kamala's Bail Fund
    I never said a word, sarcastic or otherwise, about Kamala's bail fund.

    evidence to illustrate the hypocrisy of those who support violence when it aligns with their ideology while condemning violence that does not align with their ideology.
    I couldn't make a better argument than that for those Repubs who do EXACTLY that. Completely ignore the violence at the Capitol from that yo-yo who was filmed defending against the rioters while claiming it was like a typical camera and tourist day. What in God's name could possibly make someone say such a thing in front of the whole world? And he's not the only one!

    Point 3: A list of current charges of those involved in the January 6 riot. I believe regularly updated. This is simply a source we can use to enhance our discussion.
    How can the discussion be enhanced when you leave out the serious charges?

    It was asserted in Post #2 that white supremacist domestic terrorism was involved. No such charges were found in this list related to terrorism or any sort of hate crimes.
    I never asserted that charges were filed for white supremacist terrorism. I asserted that white supremacists were part of the crowd based on Jesus banners and the testimony of a minister who was there and said Trump the Inciter was "appointed by God".

    It was asserted in Post #6 that arrests were mostly for trespassing.
    This is one of those comments that drive truth-seekers crazy. SO-DAMN-WHAT! Does that excuse the hundreds who were charged with far more serious crimes? The FACTS are available - you just need drop your laziness to search for them.

    -It was asserted in Post #16 that "Even fewer than that got violent," and Post #19 "500 so far is 'fewer that got violent.'" There are only 73 instances of an "Act of Physical Violence" in this list.
    I define violence as the whole crowd swarming and yelling things like "Hang Mike Pence" and "Get Nancy". The fact that many were never caught doesn't change the reality.

    Point 4: 25 people on the list had nothing to do with the riot, they were violating curfew, with no other charges brought. Less than 5% of those arrested.

    Point 5: There are a fair number of people who are being given leniency because they did nothing more than enter and leave.

    Point 6: There are a fair number of people who are being given leniency because they committed nothing more than petty theft.
    These points are not relevant to the main crime of insurrection. They do not absolve the bad actors. It's unclear why you even brought them up.

    You must understand something about politics. There are seldom good actors, neither on the left nor the right. Most politicians are self serving.
    Condescending comments are not your strong point.

    This particular commission is an attempt to root out failures within the federal government as related to the January 6 attack. In reality, the republicans are afraid
    The Republicans are afraid of the truth coming out and further damaging their reputation which has sunk near-bottom under Trump and the really bad leadership: I.e., McConnell, McCarthy - and Greene and the assorted other whackos like Greene.

    I see the truth as somewhere between hyperbole and denial
    That's your problem right there. You can't see the truth. You think it's in the middle of rhetoric. Wrong, it exists all by itself. You should have learned that in kindergarten.

    Turn off CNN and do some real research.
    And what cable channel do you watch?

    It is incredibly hard to engage with someone who refuses to analyze and rebut rational arguments.
    You are so right. That is why I have such difficulty dealing with the likes of you ("you're a bigot - I love you too - Athos, you're an idiot") and your pals. You rarely answer points I make (this being an exception - thank you), arguments are made that are not arguments at all (they are beliefs that have no basis in fact), and at least one here thinks this is a training ground for giving sermons.

    As for me, I strive to make factual and provable points. This is not that hard to do in today's media-driven society where so much is on video or audio easily retrievable on the internet. Truth can also be in the mind of someone from experience but not readily provable. In that case, take it or leave it.

    When I offer opinion, I try to indicate that by saying so or else it's obvious within the context.

    The media are self serving also, they ratchet up the language when it suits them; they ignore things when it suits them; they downplay whatever suits them.
    That is true to a degree. It's the nature of the beast. However, it's easy to tell which media are the best at reporting the actual events accurately. The problem we've had with mainstream media is that Trump was such a moron it was impossible to show him otherwise. Even his own appointees thought he was a nutcase. When FOX tried to support Trump it became a laughingstock although plenty of ill-informed citizens continued to watch FOX. Trump's newest favorite is OAN and NEWMAX - both as poor as can be reporting facts.

    Media is the chief safeguard against public corruption.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #57

    Jun 25, 2021, 05:51 AM
    Does anyone actually read these hyper-nuanced and piecemeal replies? It makes me tired just looking at them.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #58

    Jun 25, 2021, 06:00 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Does anyone actually read these hyper-nuanced and piecemeal replies? It makes me tired just looking at them.
    They're not for you.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #59

    Jun 25, 2021, 06:04 AM
    Thank goodness! So I don't have to read these kind of well-reasoned, scholarly statements?

    "Condescending comments are not your strong point."

    "The Republicans are afraid of the truth coming out and further damaging their reputation which has sunk near-bottom under Trump and the really bad leadership: I.e., McConnell, McCarthy - and Greene and the assorted other whackos like Greene."

    "That's your problem right there. You can't see the truth. You think it's in the middle of rhetoric. Wrong, it exists all by itself. You should have learned that in kindergarten."

    "As for me, I strive to make factual and provable points." I wonder if that includes statements about "white evangelicals", a group that you seem unable to define, and unable to say if their beliefs are somehow different from the beliefs of non-white evangelicals? And if those beliefs do not differ, then why is it so important to you to distinguish "white" evangelicals from other evangelicals? Why the racial aspect?
    InfoJunkie4Life's Avatar
    InfoJunkie4Life Posts: 1,409, Reputation: 81
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    #60

    Jun 25, 2021, 11:51 AM
    Athos, you really fail to read my comments. If it wasn't so much fun getting you all worked up, I wouldn't even bother. I spend a great deal of time researching these posts, while you continually misrepresent and only half read what's been written. You lose the chain of conversation and spend your time attacking individuals.

    I'll put some of this into context.

    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
    Heads up, 25 are there for curfew violations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    My part describing those accused is directly from the link cited by infojunkie. Could his part citing 25 curfew violations be possibly any more misleading than it already is?
    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
    No one is claiming there was no crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    You're very wrong there. At least one Republican stated it was a typical day with tourists and cameras. In general, the Republicans have played it down like you did with your "running list" citing only curfew violations. Why did you omit the serious crimes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    Instead of trying to be cute, try to answer the points I made in post # 36.
    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
    Let me clarify: "no one" here, in this discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunkie4Life
    What happened on Jan 6 was despicable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    NOW you say it - after you were called on the absurdity of your comment.

    You certainly implied it wasn't much in your post #30. You made it seem like a walk in the park with your sarcasm.

    Then why are you so casual about it (#30)?
    Quote Originally Posted by InfoJunke4Life
    The next few comments regarding Post #30...mostly vile assumptions about me. This was an attempt to clarify some facts not clearly stated prior. Let me explain in simpler terms.
    It is asserted X the link says Y
    It is asserted V the link says W
    etc.
    This link can bring clarity to this discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos
    Post # 30 is yours, not mine, and, obviously, I made no vile assumptions about you in your own post.

    I define violence as the whole crowd swarming and yelling things like "Hang Mike Pence" and "Get Nancy". The fact that many were never caught doesn't change the reality.

    These points are not relevant to the main crime of insurrection. They do not absolve the bad actors. It's unclear why you even brought them up.

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