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    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #21

    Jun 25, 2021, 01:16 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    He changed "mandate " to "tax" . He changed Obamacare from the unconstitutional idea of forcing people to purchase health insurance or pay a penalty ,to a tax for not purchasing health insurance . There are plenty of taxes for behavior . Only one for not engaging in economic activity . In every other instance that is called a penalty except in the twisted logic of Chief Justice Roberts .
    Thanks/
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #22

    Jun 25, 2021, 02:26 PM
    but it was a convenient decision
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #23

    Jun 25, 2021, 02:33 PM
    yes guaranteed to insure Roberts place in the swamp cocktail circuit .
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #24

    Jun 25, 2021, 04:32 PM
    That penalty amounts to "0" so whatever you call it no harm comes of it so the mandate is null and void. Repubs did that. States can run the ACA anyway they see fit so what are you righties squawking about? Or is it just squawking you like.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #25

    Jun 25, 2021, 06:12 PM
    Squawk? admit it tal, the ACA was a mistake, just another camel by a committee trying to breed a thoroughbred horse
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #26

    Jun 26, 2021, 03:22 AM
    no harm ? The emperor said that the plan would cut premiums . Instead premiums have more than doubled in the decade.

    We were told that the number of uninsured would drastically reduce and yet we still have the same number uninsured as before the plan . People who do not have the subsidies of the plan can not afford Obamacare .

    The emperor sold the plan by saying 'if you like your plan you can keep it ' .(Politifact's lie of the year 2013) That was not true .By adding new mandated coverage ,most people were not able to keep their plans . Instead there were millions of plans completely eliminated as an option.

    He also said 'if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor ' . But doctors have either voluntarily or been forced out of many networks due to Obamacare . There are many plans where no doctors are available for specialty care .

    Some of the largest networks have quit providing care for Obamacare patients altogether including Aetna and UnitedHealthcare . Some districts offer only one choice of coverage . Those who have no choice but Obamacare now are basically Medicaid patients .

    But of course the unstated goal of Obamacare was the universal Medicaidization of American health care . So the first Fabian step has been a success .
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #27

    Jun 26, 2021, 04:14 AM
    This link may be helpful understanding Obamacare (ACA).

    It lists 13 myths about the ACA, then gives the truth about them.

    https://www.thebalance.com/the-truth...macare-3306075
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #28

    Jun 26, 2021, 04:26 AM
    like I said ;expanded Medicaid ... a Fabian step towards universal care .
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #29

    Jun 26, 2021, 04:49 AM
    I tried the "helpful" link. It claimed, "Obama meant that the ACA itself did not cancel anyone’s plans." Well, Obama said on MANY occasions statements like these. ""If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan." That quote was, in fact, on the White House website. Or again, " Remarks in Fairfax, Va., March 19, 2010: 'If you like your doctor, you’re going to be able to keep your doctor. If you like your plan, keep your plan. I don’t believe we should give government or the insurance companies more control over health care in America. I think it’s time to give you, the American people, more control over your health.' " It is difficult to view the underlined sentence as anything other than a lie. Either that, or he had no clue about what ACA was really about.

    So the site linked in post 27 was rather clearly put up by Obama apologists.

    https://www.politifact.com/obama-like-health-care-keep/
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #30

    Jun 26, 2021, 04:53 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    like I said ;expanded Medicaid ... a Fabian step towards universal care .
    fm The Balance

    3. Obamacare Is Socialized Medicine, Like in Canada

    Truth: Not really. In Canada, the government pays most medical bills.3 In the United Kingdom, doctors are employees of the federal government.4 That's similar to America's Medicare and Medicaid. The ACA does expand Medicaid to middle-income families, but most of the expansion is in the private insurance market.

    Why do many Americans think the ACA is socialized medicine? President Barack Obama’s initial proposal included universal health care. Congress rejected this proposal, preferring one based on America's health insurance model. Ironically, Obamacare now forces Congress onto the private exchanges, just like everyone else. So, in that particular case, the ACA reduced socialized medicine.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #31

    Jun 26, 2021, 05:01 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So the site linked in post 27 was rather clearly put up by Obama apologists.

    Bias Rating: LEAST BIASED
    Factual Reporting:Country: USA (45/180 Press Freedom)
    Media Type: Website
    Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
    MBFC Credibility Rating: HIGH CREDIBILITY

    In review, when reporting on political issues related to economics, The Balance maintains neutrality and presents both sides of the argument. For example, in the article Donald Trump on Immigration, Pros, and Cons of His Policies, The Balance looks at both sides and fairly presents its arguments. This article is also perfectly sourced from credible media outlets and sources such as Whitehouse.gov, USA Today, and Pew Research. In general, The Balance is actually quite balanced in reporting and mostly sticks to its expertise of reporting on finance and investing.

    Failed Fact Checks

    None to date

    Overall, we rate The Balance Least Biased based on minimal use of loaded language and balanced reporting of financial news. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to excellent sourcing and a clean fact check record. (D. Van Zandt 12/05/2017) Updated (3/24/2021)
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #32

    Jun 26, 2021, 05:13 AM
    Kind of hard to explain this from such a wonderfully neutral and balanced site. I imagine what is posted above is simply one lib website bragging on another lib website.

    I tried the "helpful" link. It claimed, "Obama meant that the ACA itself did not cancel anyone’s plans." Well, Obama said on MANY occasions statements like these. ""If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan." That quote was, in fact, on the White House website. Or again, " Remarks in Fairfax, Va., March 19, 2010: 'If you like your doctor, you’re going to be able to keep your doctor. If you like your plan, keep your plan. I don’t believe we should give government or the insurance companies more control over health care in America. I think it’s time to give you, the American people, more control over your health.' " It is difficult to view the underlined sentence as anything other than a lie. Either that, or he had no clue about what ACA was really about.
    I'll add this. Trying to conjure up what "Obama meant" as opposed to what he said on more than two dozen occasions is practically the very definition of bias. How would they know what Obama "meant"? Wouldn't that have to based on statements from Obama? And if they had those statements, shouldn't they have listed them? And since they didn't list them, then why should we not think they simply pulled the "Obama meant" narrative out of thin air?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #33

    Jun 26, 2021, 09:16 AM
    My autistic son bought ACA health insurance. It was everything Obama had said it would be -- including affordable. Then Trump wandered into the picture. The cost doubled and the coverage was laughable, so we found our son an expensive but better plan with BC/BS.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #34

    Jun 26, 2021, 01:36 PM
    We had this debate years ago and all your right wing talking points were debunked with facts copy and pasted from the actual bill and fact is more people have more coverage than ever before and the popularity of the ACA has grown and is here to stay despite all the fringer misinformation and shenanigans.

    Still waiting for the repub plan...but nobody not even you is holding their breath.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #35

    Jun 26, 2021, 04:54 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    My autistic son bought ACA health insurance. It was everything Obama had said it would be -- including affordable. Then Trump wandered into the picture. The cost doubled and the coverage was laughable, so we found our son an expensive but better plan with BC/BS.
    Trump, like a reverse Midas, turns everything he touches into dog excrement.

    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    We had this debate years ago and all your right wing talking points were debunked with facts copy and pasted from the actual bill and fact is more people have more coverage than ever before and the popularity of the ACA has grown and is here to stay despite all the fringer misinformation and shenanigans.

    Still waiting for the repub plan...but nobody not even you is holding their breath.
    Those who oppose Obamacare simply dislike it because it's Obama's. Trump promised a plan for 4 years and never delivered the smallest inkling of one.

    The Balance is an excellent and very highly rated fair website. Naturally, the fringe right-wing objects to anything that is accurate and fair.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #36

    Jun 26, 2021, 06:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    Trump, like a reverse Midas, turns everything he touches into dog excrement.



    Those who oppose Obamacare simply dislike it because it's Obama's. Trump promised a plan for 4 years and never delivered the smallest inkling of one.

    The Balance is an excellent and very highly rated fair website. Naturally, the fringe right-wing objects to anything that is accurate and fair.
    That Trump failed to deliver is not the fault of Trump but the demonrat opposition who opposed everything he tried to do. When a country is divided it isn't possible to bring forward reform. Even now they are reaping what they have sown and Biden will find it is very hard to do anything. Being president is really being a figurehead and a mouthpiece and Biden hasn't been successfull in either so far
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #37

    Jun 26, 2021, 11:03 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    That Trump failed to deliver is not the fault of Trump
    You can't be serious.

    Biden will find it is very hard to do anything.
    True, as long as McConnell plays obstructionist and says the hell with the country.

    Being president is really being a figurehead and a mouthpiece and Biden hasn't been successfull in either so far
    Being president is far more than that. Here's a short list of Biden's successes so far.

    Provided $1.9 trillion of relief to the American economy.

    Increased federal minimum wage to $15/hr.

    Restored funding to veterans programs that had been cut under Trump.

    Money to the airline industry saving thousands of airline jobs.

    Started process to remove Postmaster Louis DeJoy.

    Revoked a Trump order that suspended federal funds from going to purported “anarchist jurisdictions.” Included were New York City, Portland and Seattle.

    Returned the United States to the Paris Climate Accord.

    Invoked the Defense Production Act to accelerate vaccine development, securing 200 million extra doses of vaccine for a total of 300 million available vaccine doses by July 2021.

    I love this one.

    BARRED Donald Trump from receiving intelligence briefings, citing his erratic behavior and the possible danger to U.S. Security. !!!!!!!!!!!!

    Just a sampling. There are more.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #38

    Jun 26, 2021, 11:56 PM
    I am indeed serious, a house divided cannot prosper

    It all depends upon your point of view obviously your point of view follows the demonrats and Biden
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #39

    Jun 27, 2021, 03:31 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    I am indeed serious, a house divided cannot prosper
    My "serious" comment referred to your finding Trump faultless.

    It all depends upon your point of view obviously your point of view follows the demonrats and Biden
    My point of view follows the FACTS as I've laid them out above. Each statement I bolded is a FACT!!
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #40

    Jun 27, 2021, 03:26 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    My "serious" comment referred to your finding Trump faultless.
    When did I say he was without fault, but not everything he did was bad and he was hamstrung by a hostile congress.



    My point of view follows the FACTS as I've laid them out above. Each statement I bolded is a FACT!!
    yes facts from your perspective

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