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    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #241

    Jun 28, 2021, 04:28 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    Your light is getting dim WG, running low on oil, are you?

    Jesus is God, as we are Jesus, as woman is Man.

    GOD was added to.
    GOD is 100%, + Jesus / Jesus is 100%, + Man / Man is 100%,+ Jesus./ Woman is 100%, + Man...Submit to your head.
    GOD became something he is not...Jesus became Sin.
    I feared your oil was low -- and still is. None of what you said here is correct.

    You've put the teachings about Jesus into a blender and turned that blender on high.
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    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #242

    Jun 28, 2021, 05:11 PM
    You've put the teachings about Jesus into a blender and turned that blender on high.
    I knew you'd like it. My understanding of the Trinity. After this life, the only thing left Standing is Jesus!
    Everything we have or ever going to have is Jesus. all life begins and ends with Jesus. God's Word was sent into the Darkness, It will not return to him emptyhanded...GOD was added to.

    You might not understand what I have stated, above. I was hoping it might give you an idea of your (a wife) role in Marriage...doubt you will subscribe to the idea; Man being the head in marriage -Just as Jesus is head of man - and GOD is head of Jesus.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #243

    Jun 28, 2021, 05:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    hopingit might give you an idea of your (a wife) role in Marriage...doubt you will subscribe to the idea, Man being the head in marriage -Just as Jesus is head of man - and GOD is head of Jesus.
    Oh, he's the head until he can't handle something and confidently passes it over to me. Thank goodness I've never had to do automotive work or figure out what's wrong with one of our computers.
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    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #244

    Jun 28, 2021, 06:34 PM
    Oh, he's the head until he can't handle
    The crying, B***ing, incessant nagging, etc. ;-)
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    #245

    Jun 28, 2021, 08:03 PM
    How did he judge babies and children deserving extermination?
    We Know how God Judges. God, is the God who justifies the wicked...it is not a gradual process, it is an instantaneous event- whereby one is declared righteous by God.

    The question you should be asking: How can a Righteous God justify the guilty?

    If the responsibility of the judge is to acquit the innocent and condemn the guilty...what in the world is going on? In the doctrine of justification, God is actually acquitting the guilty! He is justifying the ungodly. God is the God who justifies the wicked.

    This World stands Condemned, we live in a condemned cell.  Those who Judge according to this world will be judged by this world...good luck with that.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #246

    Jun 28, 2021, 08:11 PM
    Athos: How did he judge babies and children deserving extermination?
    Quote Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    We Know how God Judges. God, is the God who justifies the wicked.
    Those babies and children were wicked?
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    #247

    Jun 28, 2021, 08:24 PM
    WG, What does that mean? what are you getting at???
    Yes. That's why they have access to Heaven, after all, heaven is going to be full of sinners don't cha know?


    God, is the God who justifies the wicked.

    Or did God send his Son down here to bleed and die up on a cross, so that he then may accept people into heaven on the basis of the fact, that we tried to be as kind or as good as we possibly would?


    Maybe you could search the scriptures, and point out where I've diverted from the truth? It would help me (maybe even you). I like to bounce it off others, hoping to gain a better understanding. The fact that you rarely if ever quote scripture, doesn't help, leaving me with my own understanding. JL always quotes Scripture(big help). I think you have a heart for God (as well as this world...bad). Athos can't be trusted...he desires his flesh over Jesus crucified.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #248

    Jun 28, 2021, 11:27 PM
    from Waldo
    You might not understand what I have stated
    The understatement of the year.

    from Athos
    How did he judge babies and children deserving extermination?
    You failed to answer this one, Waldo. It refers to the Flood.

    from Waldo
    Those babies and children were wicked?
    No, Waldo, they were not wicked. They were babies.

    from Waldo
    Athos can't be trusted.
    Hmmm. Maybe because in your mind I ask those pesky questions. Like the one about children being exterminated that you can't or won't answer. The only thing you answer with is your now boring Wacko Waldo gibberish.

    Go back on your meds, wait a few days, and return when your mind has cleared.
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    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #249

    Jun 29, 2021, 01:13 AM
    If you wish to learn the truth(?), you should search out the answer to your question here- How can a Righteous God justify the guilty?
    Athos's Avatar
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    #250

    Jun 29, 2021, 04:32 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    If you wish to learn the truth(?), you should search out the answer to your question here- How can a Righteous God justify the guilty?
    Of course I'm interested in the truth. I don't think you are since almost every one of your posts is gibberish and not understandable. Even your co-religionists don't understand you.

    Here's the question - How did God judge babies and children deserving extermination? So far you have been unable to answer it. I'm not surprised. Yet, you come up with this - How can a righteous God justify the guilty?

    Do you even have the slightest clue what you're saying? Trying to say? Or are you simply avoiding answering by posting pseudo-Biblical gibberish.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #251

    Jun 29, 2021, 05:01 AM
    Those babies and children were wicked?
    Good question. There are several replies to be made.

    1. Jesus treated the flood as an actual historical event as did Peter. It is impossible to imagine why Jesus would not have simply said, "You know guys, that story about a world-wide flood is really a late addition. It should not be taken as genuine." Remember that this is the same Jesus who set aside the dietary regulations and regularly commented on the OT with the expression, "But I say unto you..."
    2. There is absolutely no textual reason at all to consider the flood account to be some sort of later addition.
    2B. There are many accounts of a great flood found in the ancient historical accounts of cultures worldwide.
    3. The years leading up to the flood were not silent years. "And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment."
    4. It is a sad fact that children always suffer for the wrongdoings of their parents. In this case, if those children and infants end up eternally in heaven, I feel sure they will not be complaining about their treatment. Besides, it is difficult to imagine what would have happened to them if they had survived post-flood.
    5. The amazing thought is that God saves anyone at all. No one deserves it. We are all unspeakably wicked when compared to the brilliance and perfection of God's holiness. Why should God save anyone?
    6. I find it perplexing why people complain about God allowing the children in the flood account to perish when those same people live in comfort in a wealthy country. Why do they not sell everything and do everything possible to save starving children? Why do they not stand outside abortion clinics and intercede for the lives of those children? Is it not gross hypocrisy to be critical of the God who gave up His only Son while doing so little ourselves? Is it not likely that God is pointing His finger at us and saying, "Why do you allow the children to perish?"
    7. Even if a person wants to regard the flood as a figurative account, you must still ask, "Figurative of what?" What lesson would be being taught other than God's mercy and judgment?
    8. At the end of the day, this is Paul's answer. "Who are you, oh man, to talk back to God?" That would particularly apply to the issue of point 6.

    For me, I am perfectly content to place the blanket of God's goodness over the Genesis flood. I do not understand all of God's acts, but I do understand His great love, completely irrational from our perspective, exhibited in sending His own Son to die for us. When I consider that, I am willing to wait for greater answers to all of these questions. But I will not engage in the fool's errand of going through the Bible and marking out all the accounts with which I do not personally agree or understand. That is working at the issue backwards. The great undertaking is not the changing of the Bible, but the changing of me to suit the Bible. The God exhibited in the OT is a God of both mercy and judgment, just as He is in the NT. There is no difference. If the Bible is true, then a day is coming when all of the nay-sayers will stand with great fear before God the Judge. They will find how little God is disturbed at their accusations of injustice. On that day they will find out who is wicked and who is just.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #252

    Jun 29, 2021, 08:13 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    1. Jesus treated the flood as an actual historical event as did Peter.
    No, Jesus treated it as the allegory it was.

    2. There is absolutely no textual reason at all to consider the flood account to be some sort of later addition.
    The Genesis flood story is first composed around the 5th century BC during the Babylonian Exile, millennia after the supposed flood. The Israelites learned it from the Sumerians who wrote about it in the Epic of Gilgamesh c.2000 BC. The Genesis flood story is almost word-for-word taken from Gilgamesh.

    2B. There are many accounts of a great flood found in the ancient historical accounts of cultures worldwide.
    Irrelevant. There are many accounts of great floods occurring in modern times. Not one, however, resulted in the annihilation of the entire human race.

    3. skipped. Nothing there.

    4. It is a sad fact that children always suffer for the wrongdoings of their parents.
    Wow - and this explains why every child on the planet was slaughtered?

    In this case, if those children and infants end up eternally in heaven, I feel sure they will not be complaining about their treatment.
    According to your own stated belief, the children will wind up in hell to be eternally tortured because they did not believe in Jesus.

    Besides, it is difficult to imagine what would have happened to them if they had survived post-flood.
    A totally bizarre way of explanation/justification. No comment possible.

    5. skipped. Nothing there.

    6. skipped. A diversion.

    7. Even if a person wants to regard the flood as a figurative account, you must still ask, "Figurative of what?"
    Good question.

    8. At the end of the day, this is Paul's answer. "Who are you, oh man, to talk back to God?" That would particularly apply to the issue of point 6.
    Paul never made any answer to the topic under discussion. Point #6 was a diversion - also irrelevant to the topic.

    For me, I am perfectly content to place the blanket of God's goodness over the Genesis flood
    A blanket of goodness over the slaughter of the entire human race? You are VERY confused.

    I do not understand all of God's acts
    Obviously.

    but I do understand His great love
    Not if you consider killing children "His great love".

    the fool's errand
    Lol - nice to see you copying my writing

    The God exhibited in the OT is a God of both mercy and judgment, just as He is in the NT. There is no difference.
    The God of the OT is a primitive God for a primitive religion. The God of the NT has evolved to manifest himself in the figure of Christ who preaches love, not killing.

    If the Bible is true, then a day is coming when all of the nay-sayers will stand with great fear before God
    That's a big "IF" - followed by the usual threat for those who don't believe the same way.

    they will find out who is wicked and who is just.
    We know that now.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #253

    Jun 29, 2021, 08:54 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    4. It is a sad fact that children always suffer for the wrongdoings of their parents. In this case, if those children and infants end up eternally in heaven, I feel sure they will not be complaining about their treatment. Besides, it is difficult to imagine what would have happened to them if they had survived post-flood.
    4. It is a sad fact that children always suffer for the wrongdoings of their parents. If aborted babies end up eternally in heaven, I feel sure they will not be complaining about their treatment. Besides, it is difficult to imagine what would have happened to them if they had survived post-abortion.
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    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #254

    Jun 29, 2021, 10:49 AM
    How did he judge
    Because of sin, We are unfit for God's Presence.
    Why did he Judge? Because we are guilty and stand Condemned. How did he judge? who cares???
    God is in control.


    Not if you consider killing children "His great love"
    What do children have to do with it?
    God sent his child to die on a cross...His GREAT love!
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    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #255

    Jun 29, 2021, 10:56 AM
    From Athos.
    How did he judge (babies and children deserving extermination)
    Quote Originally Posted by waltero View Post
    Because of sin
    Babies are sinners?

    What do "children have to do with it?
    God murdered every single living child during the Flood.
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    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #256

    Jun 29, 2021, 11:08 AM
    God murdered every single living child during the Flood.
    God destroyed every (excluding Noah and fam) living sould.


    “God was sorry he made us. Since he made us in his image, what does that say about him?”

    Nothing at all, really. He made us in his image, which what that means is its own conversation, but we then decided to use our free will to disobey him. So that's on us, not him. A painting of Everest does not reflect poorly upon Everest, especially not when the painting decides it’d rather pretend Everest didn’t exist.

    I will add this final point: does God owe us anything? Who can say to God, “you owe me a life!” or, “you owe me happiness!” Absolutely no one. God owes you and I nothing. In fact, because we’re all sinners, the only thing he ‘owes’ us is instantly throwing us into Hell, to satisfy his justice. Consider that before demonizing him for slaying a generation of unrepentant sinners, because that should be us, every single day.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #257

    Jun 29, 2021, 11:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    Babies are sinners?
    Original sin. Remember that teaching?

    Even Freud had an opinion. During infancy, before the other components of personality begin to form, children are ruled entirely by the id ("self-servingness"). Demanding basic needs for food, drink, and comfort is of the utmost importance.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #258

    Jun 29, 2021, 11:13 AM
    No, Jesus treated it as the allegory it was.
    Strictly your own imagining. There is absolutely not one trace of evidence that He regarded it as so. But even at that, if you are correct, then why would Jesus have not simply pointed that out? "Hey guys. You all do realize this is not a real story but an allegory?" He was the great explainer of the OT but He elected to let his listeners believe he regarded an allegorical account to be literal??? You really believe that? It is certainly not treated as an allegory. He simply was comparing the coming of judgment in Noah's day to what His return would be like.

    Now if you want to contend the flood is to be taken figuratively, you must still answer the question of it being figurative of what? Mercy and judgment? If so, then you have accomplished nothing.

    The Genesis flood story is first composed around the 5th century BC during the Babylonian Exile,
    And again, there is not a shred of evidence to back up that wild supposition. Even worse for your point, the Ketef Hinnom Silver Scrolls indicate a much earlier date for the OT.

    https://faithsaves.net/silver-scroll...ches%20long%29.

    According to your own stated belief, the children will wind up in hell to be eternally tortured because they did not believe in Jesus.
    Absolute lie. I've never said that.

    Paul never made any answer to the topic under discussion
    It was his reply to the question of God's sovereignty and God's judgment which are certainly a part of this topic.

    The remainder of your comments amount to a verification of the fact that you don't like God and don't believe the Bible. That has already been settled.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #259

    Jun 29, 2021, 11:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    No, Jesus treated it as the allegory it was.
    Allegories teach moral lessons. What was the lesson in the Flood story?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    [re allegory] Strictly your own imagining. There is absolutely not one trace of evidence that He regarded as so.
    And again, there is not a shred of evidence to back up that wild supposition.
    Jesus, like any good teacher, often told stories to illustrate the points He wanted to make or lessons He wanted to teach. The Flood story was only one He used effectively.
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    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #260

    Jun 29, 2021, 11:18 AM
    Quote:
    Seems like the twentieth century had spawned ugly twins. Ugly twins: one, mindlessness, and two, meaninglessness. Mindlessness and meaninglessness. I will not bother for the moment with the notion of nihilism and meaninglessness and futility, but let’s think just about mindlessness ( And let’s be honest enough to recognize that it is one of the charges that is leveled against the Christian). The man or the woman who says that they are men and women of faith, and if they’re bold enough to say that they’re actually men and women of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Because, of course, it is not unusual—in fact, it is quite common—for faith to be regarded as a kind of illogical belief in the improbable happening, and for people essentially to say, “You know, the real thinking people are those who think along these very rational lines. And therefore, we feel sorry for you that you’ve had to come up with this as a crutch or as a walking stick just to help you navigate your way through life.”

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