[Athos]

"Complementarianism" says men and women have separate roles, and men are the ones in charge. Among the nearly 800,000 words in the Bible, one sentence seems to contain white evangelical thinking on this matter. It’s from a letter the Apostle Paul wrote to his protege, Timothy: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.”

Bad theology leads to moral decay.

[Wondergirl]

And Paul wrote that regarding a specific incident that had happened at a certain church he had established.

Context is everything!

[Athos]

Bad theology leads to moral decay.

White evangelicals made up a large portion of the Jan 6 insurrectionists. See the link below connecting misogyny with violence.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/more-...b0b449dc34e0cf

[InfoJunkie4Life]

(From a white male, evangelical, conservative, Trump loving, bible believing, nobody)

There are many parts of the bible that place men over women.

Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 2. Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 3. But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.

These things are not merely the invention of Paul, but rather they come from his knowledge of the Old Testament.

To the woman He said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

This was God's commandment from the beginning.

“Now take Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister to Me as priest, Aaron and Aaron’s sons: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar. And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty.

It was Aaron and his sons, not his daughters, who were to serve as priests before God.

As a matter of fact I could list 50 (or more) passages that tend towards misogyny throughout the bible, see here, and here.

It is unfortunate that both critics and proponents usually leave out the positive roles played by women throughout the bible.

Some Examples:
Deborah, judge of Israel who sat with princes. Judges 4-5
Huldah, prophetess sought out by King Josiah, without discrimination. 2 Kings 22:11-20
Hannah, mother of Samuel, bringing sacrifices and making decisions at home 1 Samual 1-2
Rehab, savior of Joshua's spies, mentioned in the genealogy of Christ Joshua 2, Joshuah 6:22-27

Lets not forget that wisdom in Proverbs, which is "more valuable than rubies" is a feminine quality. The host of women in the New Testament are vital to the building of the Christian Church and serve many roles. The Church is the bride of Christ, and we are told to love our wives as Christ loved the church, even unto death.

Isiah 66:12 God is like a nursing woman.
Genesis 1:27 Males and females created in God's image.
John 15:26 The Holy Spirit is described as a helper, much like Eve (and the trinity is God)
Philippians 4:3 Paul tells the church at Philippi to help the women who helped him.

Christ himself is described as a servant, is the servant inferior?

I think that the women being inferior to men is read into the bible. If we take an account of the historical nations, the nation of Israel gave women rights and protections that simply were not present in the laws of other nations...even throughout the vast majority of history.

We decide that these qualities are better or worse, but it is the character that God cares about, not the sex. It is faith before status, and consistently so.

The complementarian view is not so simple as misogyny, but rather that different people play different roles. Within the church, a woman is not allowed to teach over men or serve as deacon, elder, pastor, etc. Why is it so bad that women are not allowed in this one area of life? Are you wiser than God, than the scriptures, than the prophets of old?

Galations 3:28 tells us that before God we are all equal. Regardless of sex or station.

Men and women are different and serve different roles in the church and in the family, but these different roles help to make up the whole image of God.

[Wondergirl]

Men and women are different and serve different roles in the church and in the family, but these different roles help to make up the whole image of God.

Yes! And it is now nearly halfway through 2021. Since Bible times, the world has changed in so many ways, especially regarding women. Women no longer are at home 24/7/365. Businesses welcome them as employees. Women have the right to vote in the U.S. and in other countries. Women have accompanied men into space. Women serve in the military. Women are accomplished artists and writers. Women are involved in politics and sports, and have made lasting impressions. Even Mensa, with open arms, welcomes women as members! And that's only the bare bones of women's talent (certainly far beyond baking brownies and roasting a Thanksgiving turkey).

[jlisenbe]

And Paul wrote that regarding a specific incident that had happened at a certain church he had established.

That is absolutely untrue. Paul's statement was, "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over men." He is plainly describing his usual practice, and he then gives his reason for his practice. If context is everything, then you should have considered the context to begin with.

InfoJunkie's reply was good and generally well-supported until he unfortunately went in this direction. "As a matter of fact I could list 50 (or more) passages that tend towards misogyny." At any rate, as I said, Paul clearly gave his OT basis in the 1 Timothy passage.

The statements of Athos and WG have no Bibllical support whatsoever.

one sentence seems to contain white evangelical thinking on this matter.

That's true so long as you intend to completely ignore the dozens of other statements on the issue. But I'm amazed you even refer to the Bible since you do not consider it to be reliable to begin with. Why even go there?

Businesses welcome them as employees. Women have the right to vote in the U.S. and in other countries. Women have accompanied men into space. Women serve in the military. Women are accomplished artists and writers. Women are involved in politics and sports, and have made lasting impressions. Even Mensa, with open arms, welcomes women as members! And that's only the bare bones of women's talent (certainly far beyond baking brownies and roasting a Thanksgiving turkey)

. None of which is at issue.

Lastly and unsurprisingly, the description by Athos of "complementarianism" is sadly wrong. It should be described, as the word suggests, "Complementarianism is a theological view in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, that men and women have different but complementary roles and responsibilities in marriage, family life, and religious leadership." Also unsurprisingly, he directed his criticism only at white (racist on his part?) evangelicals while being strangely silent about Muslims. Wonder why?

[Wondergirl]

That is absolutely untrue. Paul's statement was, "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over men." He is plainly describing his usual practice, and he then gives his reason for his practice. If context is everything, then you should have considered the context to begin with.

The statements of Athos and WG have no Bibllical support whatsoever.

A bit of context is needed here. Some women at one (or more) of the churches in Corinth were treating congregational meetings as an opportunity for socializing -- as if they were at the grocery store or at the mall. This idle conversation brought confusion into church meetings. Thus, verses 34-35 were a warning to chatty women to be silent during services and congregational meetings.

In 1 Corinthians 11:5, Paul asserts that women prophesy and pray aloud in church, and he doesn’t silence them or condemn them. In that verse, Paul also says we women should wear a head covering, as do married Muslim women who each wear a hijab as a symbol of the sanctity of her marriage.

[waltero]

Men who are accused of never listening by women now have an excuse — women’s voices are more difficult for men to listen to than other men’s, a report said.

https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/me...hearing_women/

Maybe Paul knew what he was talking about. Use to be- never play more than two songs on the radio, when a woman's voice was involved. Backed by Science.

[jlisenbe]

A bit of context is needed here. Some women at one (or more) of the churches in Corinth were treating congregational meetings as an opportunity for socializing -- as if they were at the grocery store or at the mall. This idle conversation brought confusion into church meetings. Thus, verses 34-35 were a warning to chatty women to be silent during services and congregational meetings.

1 Timothy 2 does not have a verse 34 or 35. The text in question is verse 12. It is not about chatty women. It is about women in leadership. "...to teach or to have authority over a man..." His rationale is found in the next verse. " And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed." So his reasoning is that women are more easily deceived than men. You might not agree with that, but that is his position. It has nothing to do with problems at Ephesus or chatty women.

[waltero]

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and transgressed." So his reasoning is that women are more easily deceived than men.

You would think the above text would put an end to this discussion...it will not.
That's why I didn't bring it up.

@WG; The world is a changin, people are changing, and it's not for the better.

[Wondergirl]

You would think the above text would put an end to this discussion...it will not.
That's why I didn't bring it up.

It's an allegory anyway. P.S. All she had to do was blink her pretty lashes and sweetly suggest Adam take a bite. And he did. Thus, it took all the guile of Satan to tempt the woman, but it took only a woman to tempt the man.

@WG; The world is a changin, people are changing, and it's not for the better.

I don't know where you live. I'm sorry you aren't having a good experience. The people in my neck of the woods are getting nicer and nicer.

[jlisenbe]

It's an allegory anyway.

The text under discussion is not an allegory. Might add that Jesus spoke of Adam and Eve as real people. There are a number of good reasons to believe it is quite true.

Ever study "mitochondrial Eve"?

[Wondergirl]

The text under discussion is not an allegory.

waltero was talking about the Fall. I responded to his quote but didn't quote what he quoted since it was easily seen.

Might add that Jesus spoke of Adam and Eve as real people. There are a number of good reasons to believe it is quite true.

Jesus knew very well it was an allegory, and for his uneducated listeners always repeated such stories with characters intact.

Ever study "mitochondrial Eve"?

Yep, as Wikipedia quite nicely explains it, "The name "Mitochondrial Eve" alludes to the Biblical Eve, which has led to repeated misrepresentations or misconceptions in journalistic accounts on the topic."

[waltero]

Sure, Women want a traditional man but don't want to be a traditional woman.

[Wondergirl]

Sure, Women want a traditional man but don't want to be a traditional woman.

There is no such thing as a "traditional man". Whatchu smokin', Willis?!

[waltero]

I don't know where you live. I'm sorry you aren't having a good experience. The people in my neck of the woods are getting nicer and nicer.

Oh, I stand corrected. The World is a lovely place. It won't last another ten years!

[Wondergirl]

Oh, I stand corrected. The World is a lovely place. It won't last another ten years!

People have been saying that for millennia. The people in Jesus' day decided the world would end during their lifetime. "An American pastor, Kenton Beshore, claims he has hard-and-fast evidence that the rapture will happen in 2021. His credibility is only slightly undercut by the fact that this is his second try: his first end of the world was supposed to happen in 1988. And it... didn't."

The world doesn't produce men anymore, that is true. But there are plenty of traditional men to choose from.
Girls just want to have Fun.

What's a "traditional man"? Ozzie Nelson? Desi Ricardo? Rody Rogers?

[waltero]

What's a "traditional man?

A man who places women on a pedestal and provides for.
I deleted that part of the post, I didn't want to get into it. Look at women's Lib, such hate...such is life.
Hurrah forme and F**k everybody else...Welcome to the brave new world. The world is in Caos.

[jlisenbe]

I hate to ask this but how do you know Jesus considered Adam and Eve to be an allegory?

You certainly demonstrated you have never studied mitochondrial Eve.

[Athos]

(From a white male, evangelical, conservative, Trump loving, bible believing, nobody)

There are many parts of the bible that place men over women.

There follows pages and pages of misogyny from the Bible. Thank you so much for proving my point.

Also, your loving Trump is noted. That supports an idea I have of the connection between the Jan6 insurrection and white evangelicals. More on that some other time.