[paraclete]

so war is hell, even more so when waged by totalitarian regimes

[Athos]

I'm sticking to my premise

Your premise is wrong. Long before the synthetic oil program was declining, the issue had been settled. The fighting continued, but the outcome was not in doubt.

[waltero]

The Soviets would have won regardless, as the Eastern Front for the Germans was unwinnable after the Battle of Stalingrad.

Stick to the traditional narrative of Stalingrad being a catastrophic defeat. I can understand this, and I want to make clear that Stalingrad was a notable Soviet victory. But I believe its significance is overstated. It is considered such a monumental battle both then and now because it represented the first time such a large German formation suffered complete destruction. It had a tremendous “shock effect”. To be fair, the Germans had already inflicted Stalingrad level losses on the Soviets multiple times since Operation Barbarossa.

We tend to be blinded by hindsight bias. Because the Soviet Union ultimately won, we feel the capture of 450,000 Soviet troops at Kiev in 1941 was inconsequential, whereas the capture of 90,000 Germans at Stalingrad was somehow a decisive war winning event.

[paraclete]

Stalingrad was a turning point, Hitler's grab for eastern oil was over and he was being crushed all along the eastern front, Russian firepower was overwhelming, a true blitzkrieg. It wasn't the capture of the German troops it was the number who had been sacrificed, perhaps due to Goering's boast he could supply them. Let's face it, the German's were never a winter army, quick successes by a few mechanised divisions in the spring and summer were their forte. let us just say as has been observed before; Hilter, like Napoleon before him, found that Russian winters were very cold. what really defeated the Germans was their splitting of their forces and micromanagement by Hitler. If they had concentrated on Moscow and preventing the Russians from migrating their industries the war in the East would have been over

[waltero]

Stalingrad was a turning point

Can't Deny that...not to mention a few other Turning points.

Prior to the American entry, each side was doing a fairly good job of neutralizing the other. It was the American entry into the war that ended up proving to be decisive and would end up defining victory for the Allies.

[jlisenbe]

The Germans could have withdrawn the Sixth Army from the Stalingrad pocket if Hiter had not been so obstinate. He turned a bad situation into a genuine disaster.

[Athos]

Prior to the American entry, each side was doing a fairly good job of neutralizing the other. It was the American entry into the war that ended up proving to be decisive and would end up defining victory for the Allies.

Completely and utterly wrong! What source are you getting this from?

By America's entry into the war in December 1941, the Russians had stopped the Germans in front of Moscow. The Americans did not enter the European ground war until June 1944 (except for the Italian campaign which dragged on until May 1945 after Hitler's suicide). By then (June '44), the Russians had the Germans reeling, falling back into Germany with the Russian massive and decisive counter-offensive timed to coincide with the Allies D-Day.

America was never decisive in WWII in Europe. A combatant, yes - decisive, no.

[jlisenbe]

America was never decisive in WWII in Europe

You can say that only if you ignore the Atlantic, supply convoys to Russia, the skies over Germany, Africa, and the necessity for Germany to defend the west and south of Europe against eventual Allied invasions.

[waltero]

American entry into the war that ended up proving to be decisive and would end up defining victory for the Allies.

World War II, also called Second World War, conflict that involved virtually every part of the world during the years 1939–45.

All that stood betweet the British/Americans and Berlin was Eisenhower. He signed a treaty with Stalin in which he said that his troops wouldn't cross the line of the river Elbe.

BTW Monty had the fastest way to Berlin.

[Athos]

World War II, also called Second World War, conflict that involved virtually every part of the world during the years 1939–45.

All that stood betweet the British/Americans and Berlin was Eisenhower. He signed a treaty with Stalin in which he said that his troops wouldn't cross the line of the river Elbe.

BTW Monty had the fastest way to Berlin.

None of that means the Americans were decisive.

[Athos]

You can say that only if you ignore the Atlantic, supply convoys to Russia, the skies over Germany, Africa, and the necessity for Germany to defend the west and south of Europe against eventual Allied invasions.

I'm not ignoring any of that. Where did I ignore that?

Those were certainly important aspects of the war, but they were not decisive. I repeat, Russia accounted for 75-80% destruction of the German war machine. What could be more decisive than that?

Did they have help from the US giving assistance in war material? Sure, but nowhere near what some Americans claim. Nowhere near the Russians own production of aircraft, tanks, and artillery. The Russians clearly appreciated the transport vehicles, especially the jeep.

[waltero]

Eastern Front for the Germans was unwinnable after the Battle of Stalingrad

Probably true.

Russia did indeed play a major role in WW2...... To say they played THE major role is what I question.

What War did Russia play in?
Declared War on Finland (lost big), Poland, Germany,  and Nothing for Japan until 1945.

Eastern Front (only)

World War II, also called Second World War, conflict that involved virtually every part of the world during the years 1939–45.
America and her True Allies was Fighting a WORLD WAR

Most Countries believe America was the Deciding factor...I'll go with that.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...ore-beat-nazis

The Soviet Union did not turn the tide on the Eastern Front on its own. Though for decades Soviet historians played down the role of American and British Lend-Lease aid, its real significance has now been acknowledged. From 1942 a flow of food and raw materials and engineering equipment sustained the Soviet war effort.

There was enough food in the end to ensure a square meal for every Soviet soldier; most of the Soviet rail network was supplied with locomotives, wagons and rails made in the USA; one million miles of telephone wire, 14 million pairs of boots, 363, 000 trucks, all helped to keep the Red Army fighting with growing efficiency. Without Allied aid, Stalin later admitted, 'we would not have been able to cope'.

[jlisenbe]

I'm not ignoring any of that. Where did I ignore that?

When you made this absurd statement. "America was never decisive in WWII in Europe. A combatant, yes - decisive, no."

[Athos]

Most Countries believe America was the Deciding factor...I'll go with that.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...ore-beat-nazis

Thank you for providing your source. YouGov is a UK outfit that polls random internet users on various questions. Polling internet users for critical information on who was decisive for WW2 is WORTHLESS. This is precisely the group that gets its information from fiction and Hollywood movies.

This conversation is over.

[jlisenbe]

This conversation is over.

Good job, Walter!!

[waltero]

Thank you for providing your source.

That was only one such source, would you like me to post some moe?

I was going to post a Poll they took, finding that every nation votes for their country as having to do more than their share in ending the War. Why do you think that more countries think America was the major factor when they would normally vote for themselves? Even Germany voted that they were the major contributors in ending the War.

Your Historians are up in the air about the whole thing???


If D-Day had been the key offensive battle of the war in Europe, the Battle of the Bulge was the key defensive battle, and a vital part of the Allied victory. Here we Have two significant Battles.

What was it that Gotcha- Without Allied aid, Stalin later admitted, 'we would not have been able to cope'?
The Fact that Stalin was crying for Peace when Germany Came within Range of Moscow?
Russia was just trying to save their own arse...Crying along the way. Save us America, please start another front, please support us, we lovve our Mother Russia, help us save her.

Your Argument was lost over 70 years ago. America Won the War long before you was a glimmer in your Daddies Eye.

This conversation is over.

America wins, Again!

[waltero]

On behalf Of America: Your welcome, for not having to Speak a second language Badly. 

[talaniman]

The American exceptionalism in WW2 weren't the battles won or lost, but the rebuilding of Europe.

[paraclete]

America wins, Again!

Savour your past glories, we have not seen their like since

On behalf Of America: Your welcome, for not having to Speak a second language Badly.

considering how well you speak your first language I think we will pass on that

The American exceptionalism in WW2 weren't the battles won or lost, but the rebuilding of Europe.

Yes Tal they contributed to the present dichotomy, but that was part of the cold war

[talaniman]

Who said the cold war was over? Prove it!