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talaniman · Apr 13, 2021, 04:53 PM

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness didn't apply to slaves, Indians, and women. Not sure inalienable right from the Creator did either. Yeah the founders were great moral leaders.

jlisenbe · Apr 13, 2021, 04:56 PM

The laws I follow win. As far as I know, all laws say rape is bad.

So if laws change to allow for rape, then rape becomes moral? When slavery was legal, was slavery moral? I'm just trying to determine what standard you use to determine what is or isn't moral. You say it's not public opinion, so is it law?

Because rape is bad.

You are appealing only to your opinion. I certainly agree with you, but many people do not. So for them, is rape NOT bad?

Only in your fevered imagination was it plainly an appeal to public opinion.

Then what was your divorce example an appeal to?

paraclete · Apr 13, 2021, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness didn't apply to slaves, Indians, and women. Not sure inalienable right from the Creator did either. Yeah the founders were great moral leaders.

No they weren't included in "all men" were they? they certainly weren't equal in those days which brings into question every thing they said

jlisenbe · Apr 13, 2021, 05:17 PM

What the founding fathers accomplished was an enormous step forward as opposed to being dominated by a king. And they established a Constitutional framework that enabled the rights they advocated for to be extended to all people. I would just say to all of you moralizers that when you have exhibited 1% of the courage and wisdom they did, or when you have accomplished 1% of what they did, then you will be more believable. They must be seen within the times they lived in.

Athos · Apr 13, 2021, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So if laws change to allow for rape, then rape becomes moral?

Where in the world are you getting this from? Not from anything I said.

When slavery was legal, was slavery moral?

I do not think it was, but others did think it was moral. They base this on the law at the time (and the Bible!). That shoots down your opinion that morality reverts to public opinion when not from God.

I'm just trying to determine what standard you use to determine what is or isn't moral. You say it's not public opinion, so is it law?

It can be law and usually is. But as we have just seen re slavery, not always. And law itself has a source. Regardless of the source, morality (or law) does not spring full-blown from the mind of man. It takes time for something to be deemed moral or immoral.

The simplest way to express the source is a code of conduct that works and that originates in a shared culture. Is it the same for everybody? On the whole, yes. (There are always exceptions to everything.) It takes time to develop, like any other organizing principle of humanity.

You are appealing only to your opinion.

You say this frequently, but what else can anyone appeal to if not his own mind and how he understands things?

I certainly agree with you, but many people do not.

Who does NOT believe rape is bad? Please don't say a rapist.

So for them, is rape NOT bad?

The only ones who fall into this category are those of unsound mind - mentally unbalanced people.

Then what was your divorce example an appeal to?

It was not an appeal to anything. It was an example of how morality changes.

jlisenbe · Apr 13, 2021, 05:55 PM

The simplest way to express the source is a code of conduct that works and that originates in a shared culture. Is it the same for everybody? On the whole, yes. (There are always exceptions to everything.) It takes time to develop, like any other organizing principle of humanity.

So morality is not universal. It only applies to the "shared culture" in which it originates?

Who does NOT believe rape is bad? Please don't say a rapist.

The only ones who fall into this category are those of unsound mind - mentally unbalanced people.

There have been entire cultures who accepted that raping the women of conquered peoples was acceptable. Rome comes to mind. Rome would unhesitatingly kill, rape, and sell into slavery a conquered nation. They would have said YOU are the mentally unbalanced one for not agreeing with them. So I don't think your view of how moral values are established is particularly compelling.

It was not an appeal to anything. It was an example of how morality changes.

Based on changes in public opinions.

talaniman · Apr 13, 2021, 06:02 PM

When you learn better and do better that's called evolutionary progress. It's okay if you're still stuck in the past just please get the freak out of the way.

PS

Keep your crap in your own yard unless INVITED!

jlisenbe · Apr 13, 2021, 06:26 PM

There's a rather large crowd of people in Minneapolis (peaceful protestors according to some on this site) who have a shared cultural belief that breaking into stores and stealing the contents is a perfectly moral thing to do. Does that make them right?

Wondergirl · Apr 13, 2021, 06:42 PM

That large crowd (I heard it's around 1,000 people -- thinning out now) are peaceful protesters. The smashers and grabbers are opportunists, not protesters. No shared values.

jlisenbe · Apr 13, 2021, 06:47 PM

That large crowd (I heard it's around 1,000 people -- thinning out now) are peaceful protesters. The smashers and grabbers are opportunists, not protesters. No shared values.

How do you know that?

talaniman · Apr 13, 2021, 06:59 PM

Protests and rioting seems to go hand in hand with cop killings. Wonder why?

Wondergirl · Apr 13, 2021, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

How do you know that?

Because the protesters are totally pissed that the opportunists take away the impact of the protest and turn it into something vile.

jlisenbe · Apr 13, 2021, 07:35 PM

Because the protesters are totally pissed that the opportunists take away the impact of the protest and turn it into something vile.

OK. First of all, that doesn't tell me how you know "That large crowd...are peaceful protesters. The smashers and grabbers are opportunists, not protesters. No shared values."

But even at that, how do you know that, " the protesters are totally pissed that the opportunists take away the impact of the protest and turn it into something vile." I think we are back to broken chromosomes, which is to say simple speculation in an effort to support your narrative.

Wondergirl · Apr 14, 2021, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

OK. First of all, that doesn't tell me how you know "

Since 1963, I've lived in a large metropolitan area that's very multicultural and multiracial. My Black (and white) friends are well educated, well spoken, and very familiar with what's going on in the world. That's how I know.

jlisenbe · Apr 14, 2021, 09:59 AM

Since 1963, I've lived in a large metropolitan area that's very multicultural and multiracial. My Black (and white) friends are well educated, well spoken, and very familiar with what's going on in the world. That's how I know.

You don't "know" any such thing. You are just making assumptions. But the ones (hundreds of them) looting and destroying certainly have a shared cultural belief, so I guess that, for them, it is a moral undertaking???

Wondergirl · Apr 14, 2021, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

have a shared cultural belief

Looting, smashing, raising havoc, destroying property, injuring people...those are cultural (Black?) values?

talaniman · Apr 14, 2021, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Since 1963, I've lived in a large metropolitan area that's very multicultural and multiracial. My Black (and white) friends are well educated, well spoken, and very familiar with what's going on in the world. That's how I know.

That's is a very reasonable assumption based on experience and interactions and no doubt the willingness to listen closely WG with no bias(?), or judgement.

Unlike others! That's always been the problem in America, judgement without listening and NO empathy whatsoever, so it's no wonder the protests and complaints getter louder and more dramatic.

Wondergirl · Apr 14, 2021, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

That's is a very reasonable assumption based on experience and interactions and no doubt the willingness to listen closely WG with no bias(?), or judgement.

That's the biggest, most loving gift my wonderful dad blessed me with. From early childhood on, I was taught, mostly by his example, to be kind, caring, a good listener, both sympathetic AND empathetic. The libraries I worked at for 30 years had patrons of every culture, race, ethnic group, and they each added wonderful dimensions to my life.

jlisenbe · Apr 14, 2021, 11:08 AM

That's the biggest, most loving gift my wonderful dad blessed me with. From early childhood on, I was taught, mostly by his example, to be kind, caring, a good listener, both sympathetic AND empathetic. The libraries I worked at for 30 years had patrons of every culture, race, ethnic group, and they each added wonderful dimensions to my life.

All of which is wonderful, but none of which gives you even a clue as to the crowd tearing up the town in Minneapolis. Pretty sure you'd have to actually go up there and observe/interact to know what you claimed to know.

talaniman · Apr 14, 2021, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

All of which is wonderful, but none of which gives you even a clue as to the crowd tearing up the town in Minneapolis. Pretty sure you'd have to actually go up there and observe/interact to know what you claimed to know.

The same could be said of you and maybe you could separate the peaceful message from the more volatile ones and the troublemakers from down right criminals. Maybe then you could listen to reason and understand the cause and effects circumstances of events better. Just saying!