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    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,303, Reputation: 10854
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    #121

    Jan 21, 2021, 06:41 PM






    Athos's Avatar
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    #122

    Jan 21, 2021, 06:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    The problem is when liberal dems suggest Trump was inciting insurrection. It's just an absurd suggestion that is completely untrue.
    For weeks, Trump whipped up his far-right supporters with unfounded conspiracy theories about election fraud, then summoned them to DC for his "Save America" rally, promising them that "it will be wild". At the rally, he urged thousands to march on the Capitol, showing "strength" and "fight like hell" to keep the Democrats from "fraudulently taking over our country".

    Clearly, his behavior smacked of rebellion, insurrection, seditious conspiracy and incitement to a riot - take your pick.

    CBen, if you want to refer to something specific, then feel free to. I don't know how to respond to something like, "...that includes twisting things and arguing the toss."
    You're the master of twisting words around on these pages. Your "not knowing how to respond" is just another of your evasions.

    There was Trump's call to the Georgia Secretary of State pressuring him to "find 11,780 votes" - the exact number he'd need to win the state. He openly threatened the secretary with a crime if he didn't accede to Trump's bogus claims of fraud.

    People died because of Trump's incitement, hundreds have been arrested with more to come, even members of Congress are now believed to have been criminally involved. Trump will be facing civil and criminal, state and federal charges for the rest of his life - a fitting end to a man truly touched by evil.
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    #123

    Jan 21, 2021, 07:31 PM
    If you see me twisting words, then point it out. Your general criticisms just come across as angry remarks that accomplish nothing.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,986, Reputation: 5430
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    #124

    Jan 21, 2021, 07:35 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    If you see me twisting words, then point it out.
    Just like with the Bible, you cherry-pick.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,431, Reputation: 155
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    #125

    Jan 21, 2021, 08:31 PM
    Sorry you feel that way, but I think you simply don't like some of the verses I "pick". I would think that for every verse I present that you consider to be "cherry picking", I can find ten or more others that say the same thing. At some point the numbers become overwhelming.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,431, Reputation: 155
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    #126

    Jan 21, 2021, 08:39 PM
    But as I've said many times, when you feel that is the case, then point it out. These vague, generalized accusations just sound like the complaints of angry people.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,986, Reputation: 5430
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    #127

    Jan 21, 2021, 08:41 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Sorry you feel that way, but I think you simply don't like some of the verses I "pick". I would think that for every verse I present that you consider to be "cherry picking", I can find ten more that say the same thing. At some point the numbers become overwhelming.
    Consider the context. Just because it's said ten times doesn't mean it has the meaning you think it does. The Bible is packed with poetry, history, allegories, parables, etc. and each fits into the context in some way.
    Athos's Avatar
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    #128

    Jan 21, 2021, 08:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Just like with the Bible, you cherry-pick.
    True of all Bible literalists. The trees always get in the way of their seeing the forest.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,431, Reputation: 155
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    #129

    Jan 21, 2021, 08:53 PM
    Consider the context. Just because it's said ten times doesn't mean it has the meaning you think it does. The Bible is packed with poetry, history, allegories, parables, etc. and each fits into the context in some way.
    Like I said, if you see a particular instance of that happening, then point it out. But honestly, I cannot point it out in the case of the two of you since you practically never quote the Bible. There is just this never ending appeal to some mystical "forest" that, I suspect, exists only in the minds of two people who simply don't want to accept the clear and plain teaching of the Bible. You certainly don't seem to be able to articulate that "forest" by using the Bible.
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    #130

    Jan 21, 2021, 09:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Like I said, if you see a particular instance of that happening, then point it out. But honestly, I cannot point it out in the case of the two of you since you practically never quote the Bible.
    Here's one: The Garden of Eden story didn't actually happen. It's an allegory.
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    #131

    Jan 21, 2021, 09:24 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    There is just this never ending appeal to some mystical "forest" that, I suspect, exists only in the minds of two people who simply don't want to accept the clear and plain teaching of the Bible.
    It's a figure of speech. I'm surprised someone who claims your credentials doesn't know that.

    The forest is the big picture. The trees are the details. The big picture is the basic message of the Bible. The trees are the details that, taken as a whole, make up the message. When the trees (details alone without context) prevent you from seeing the forest (the Bible as a whole) you are missing the basic message.
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    #132

    Jan 22, 2021, 02:03 AM
    It's a figure of speech. I'm surprised someone who claims your credentials doesn't know that.

    The forest is the big picture. The trees are the details. The big picture is the basic message of the Bible. The trees are the details that, taken as a whole, make up the message. When the trees (details alone without context) prevent you from seeing the forest (the Bible as a whole) you are missing the basic message.
    Thank you, captain obvious. Still you cannot articulate that "forest" or point to any passages of scripture to support your view. And when a person puts "forest" in quotes (like that), it is an acknowledgment that it is being used to mean something other than a literal collection of trees. "I'm surprised someone who claims your credentials doesn't know that."
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,431, Reputation: 155
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    #133

    Jan 22, 2021, 02:09 AM
    Here's one: The Garden of Eden story didn't actually happen. It's an allegory.
    An example of an opinion. However, Paul certainly believed it happened as did Jesus. There is, in fact, not one shred of support for your position from any author of the Bible. Rather troubling, don't you think??

    Whoops. I forgot. You guys don't think you need the Bible to support your ideas about...the Bible.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,986, Reputation: 5430
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    #134

    Jan 22, 2021, 09:34 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Whoops. I forgot. You guys don't think you need the Bible to support your ideas about...the Bible.
    Oh,yes, we do. This allegory (tree) is one of many that support the Bible's message (forest). I wonder if you know what that is. Hmm.... The Flood story is another allegory (tree), as is Jonah and the Great Fish.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,431, Reputation: 155
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    #135

    Jan 22, 2021, 09:53 AM
    You have not identified what is, in your view, the Bible's central message, so no one could have any idea if your supposed allegories, an idea that I will say (again) is supported nowhere in the Bible, support your supposed central message. And why am I not surprised at that state of affairs?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,986, Reputation: 5430
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    #136

    Jan 22, 2021, 09:58 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You have not identified what is, in your view, the Bible's central message, so no one could have any idea if your supposed allegories, an idea that I will say (again) is supported nowhere in the Bible, support your supposed central message. And why am I not surprised at that state of affairs?
    You don't KNOW the Bible's central message??? Wow!
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,431, Reputation: 155
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    #137

    Jan 22, 2021, 10:03 AM
    You know what I said. You're not stupid. Be honest.

    You have not identified what is, in your view, the Bible's central message
    This is why any discussion with you is just an exercise in futility. You will go to any length to avoid actually saying anything of real substance due to, I think, your fear of having to answer any truly serious questions.
    Curlyben's Avatar
    Curlyben Posts: 18,485, Reputation: 1859
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    #138

    Jan 22, 2021, 10:23 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    CBen, if you want to refer to something specific, then feel free to. I don't know how to respond to something like, "...that includes twisting things and arguing the toss."
    Exactly.
    This is what I'm talking about, rather than addressing the entirety of the response you focus on one, or two, small elements.
    This isn't conducive to an open discussion and just serves to get people's backs up.
    If all you want to do is be objectionable, then you are firmly on that path.
    Please post like the articulatable adult that you are rather than some spoilt child that has been found with their hand in the cookie jar.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 37,986, Reputation: 5430
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    #139

    Jan 22, 2021, 10:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You have not identified what is, in your view, the Bible's central message
    It isn't "in my view"; it IS the Bible's central message.

    from Matthew 22: Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,431, Reputation: 155
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    #140

    Jan 22, 2021, 10:47 AM
    from Matthew 22: Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.
    Those are the two greatest commandments, so that's a good answer.

    I would suggest a passage from Colossians. "13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

    Or we could go with this passage in Ephesians 1. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making knownc to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

    How would you put it in your own words? Honest question.

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