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Athos · Apr 8, 2021, 11:05 AM

Here's the question you continue to evade.

Which one is true - Matthew's passage or God's love? Both can't be true. Would an unconditionally loving God cast his creatures into his personal torture chamber for all eternity simply because they never heard of or believed in Jesus? Of course not!

Here's your non-answer.

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

"Your incorrect understanding of unconditional love, completely unsupported by the Bible, needs to be adjusted to fit the clear statement of Jesus. It's really very simple, and it is now obvious to everyone here that your ideas are just that...your ideas."

NOTE: There's no answer there in your "answer". Only in your foggy mind is that an answer. You skated around, talking Bible and Jesus and then saying "It is now obvious to everyone here that your ideas are just that...your ideas". OBVIOUS? TO EVERYONE HERE? Where's the answer? My ideas are just that - my ideas. Wow, how long did it take you to come up with that one about my ideas being my ideas? BRILLIANT!

But I'll make your life simple for you.

I'll make it even simpler for you. Drop unconditional love. It's not critical to the question. Plain old "love" will do. Is that easier for you?

You are asking how I think Mt. 25 fits into your idea of God's unconditional love, and it has just been answered.

I have just explained to you that it has NOT been answered. Then I made it easier for you since you are so hung up on the word "unconditional". Another semantic roadblock you love so well to delay and deflect.

But you haven't been able at all to describe your version of unconditional love from the Bible.

I don't need a Bible to describe love - unconditional or otherwise. It's a pretty common term. If you're confused about it, google it. Oh, I forgot, you don't google.

OK, let's go even more basic. Simply tell what unconditional love means to you. It's a term in your question, so it would be logical for you to simply describe it.

You're a master at delaying an answer to a simple question. I wonder why?

I'll wait...probably forever.

"Tis a consummation, devoutly to be wished"

Wondergirl · Apr 8, 2021, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Not according to the Bible. So WG, what do you think unconditional love and acceptance mean?

It means we don't have to do anything to be loved by God -- we don't have to behave a certain way or think a certain way or talk a certain way. God's love is agape, perfect love. It’s independent of our mistakes or life situation. We can't experience the fullness of God's freedom, peace, and joy until we fully give Him our hearts in return. BUT, whether we do that or not, He still loves us and won't dump us, as it says in Hebrews 13:5. God’s unconditional love for us is the love that gives us the model for our own lives. If we could master this kind of love, our world would be hate-free. I Cor. 13:4-7. In thanks to God for His amazing love, we will heed Micah 6:8.

jlisenbe · Apr 8, 2021, 11:23 AM

Many words don’t hide your non-understanding. Mt 25 is correct and your understanding of unconditional love is faulty...whatever it is. You plainly cannot even describe it yourself. So you are asking, “How does Mt. 25 agree with my flawed, non-specific, unsupported, unbiblical, foggy, vague understanding of unconditional love?”

Athos · Apr 8, 2021, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

It means we don't have to do anything to be loved by God -- we don't have to behave a certain way or think a certain way or talk a certain way. God's love is agape, perfect love. It’s independent of our mistakes or life situation. We can't experience the fullness of God's freedom, peace, and joy until we fully give Him our hearts in return. BUT, whether we do that or not, He still loves us and won't dump us, as it says in Hebrews 13:5. God’s unconditional love for us is the love that gives us the model for our own lives. If we could master this kind of love, our world would be hate-free. I Cor. 13:4-7. In thanks to God for His amazing love, we will heed Micah 6:8.

WOW! Impressive.

Jl will probably say it's unbiblical. Or wrong. Or incorrect. He does things like that when he's at a loss.

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Many words don’t hide your non-understanding. Mt 25 is correct and your understanding of unconditional love is faulty...whatever it is. You plainly cannot even describe it yourself. So you are asking, “How does Mt. 25 agree with my flawed, non-specific, unsupported, unbiblical, foggy, vague understanding of unconditional love?”

Woops - I missed this. I almost had you right, didn't I? Whatever.

You don't know what unconditional love is - "whatever it is" - yet you accuse WG's description as "faulty"? I give you 4 Pinocchios. And one great big CHUTZPAH!

jlisenbe · Apr 8, 2021, 12:15 PM

Athos, my response was to you, and not to her. She, unlike you, has the courage to give an answer.

It means we don't have to do anything to be loved by God -- we don't have to behave a certain way or think a certain way or talk a certain way. God's love is agape, perfect love. It’s independent of our mistakes or life situation. We can't experience the fullness of God's freedom, peace, and joy until we fully give Him our hearts in return. BUT, whether we do that or not, He still loves us and won't dump us, as it says in Hebrews 13:5

My congratulations to you. You made a good effort. However, what you are missing is this. "I will never leave you or forsake you." Who is the "you" in that text? Is it everyone, or those who have committed to Christ as Lord and Savior? The answer is in verse 6. "So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?” He is not your Lord until you make Him your Lord. Now when you see that, it fits perfectly into John 3:16. They are in perfect harmony.

You are confusing unconditional love with unconditional salvation. "All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Who will be saved? "All who call upon the name of the Lord." Or again, "Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed." Who will not be disappointed? "He who believes in Him."

God's unconditional love is stunning in its perfection, that He would send, "His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have life everlasting."

It is true that, " we don't have to do anything to be loved by God." But to be accepted by God, and to enter His family and Kingdom? Different story. "to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,"

I commend you for your courage and willingness to answer a simple question. There is much in your answer I agree with.

Wondergirl · Apr 8, 2021, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

It is true that, "we don't have to do anything to be loved by God." But to be accepted by God, and to enter His family and Kingdom? Different story. "

Nope. Same story. If I cursed Him from now until my dying day, He would not reject me, but would continue to love me. That sounds like unconditional love to me. God doesn't say, "I love you IF ..."

jlisenbe · Apr 8, 2021, 01:07 PM

To be accepted is not the same as to be loved. They are not synonymous. John 3:16 spells it out very clearly. "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have life everlasting." He loves everyone, but His love does not rescue people. It makes the way of rescue accessible. And yet many still perish because they will not come to Him in the only manner acceptable to Him, and that is through believing in His Son.

If you don't find that agreeable, then please give me your view of that verse.

Wondergirl · Apr 8, 2021, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

To be accepted is not the same as to be loved.

You must not have children.

He loves everyone, but His love does not rescue people.

What about Adam and Eve? Noah and his family? Baby Moses? the thief on the cross? Doubting Thomas? Did God rescue them or still love them because of their goodness, good behavior, their belief?

And yet many still perish because they will not come to Him in the only manner acceptable to Him, and that is through believing in His Son.

Bumper sticker popular back in the '80s: "I found God!"
Nope. It should have said: "God found me!"

jlisenbe · Apr 8, 2021, 01:31 PM

Have 3.

Read Hebrews 11:39,40 to get your answer. How did those OT saints gain approval?

Wondergirl · Apr 8, 2021, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Have 3.

You stop loving them after they do a bad thing? Then, they must re-earn your love?

Read Hebrews 11:39,40 to get your answer. How did those OT saints gain approval?

No approval otherwise? The burden was on them? They had to earn it? (Sounds like school)

jlisenbe · Apr 8, 2021, 01:54 PM

Faith doesn’t earn.

Wondergirl · Apr 8, 2021, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Faith doesn’t earn.

I have no clue what that means.

jlisenbe · Apr 8, 2021, 02:19 PM

Read Romans, the first four chapters.

Wondergirl · Apr 8, 2021, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Read Romans, the first four chapters.

No. Tell me in your own words.

jlisenbe · Apr 8, 2021, 02:34 PM

No. Do the work. If you want to know, you will.

Wondergirl · Apr 8, 2021, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

No. Do the work. If you want to know, you will.

I want the explanation coming out of your brain, in your own words.

jlisenbe · Apr 8, 2021, 03:06 PM

“I want.” It’s our great downfall.

Wondergirl · Apr 8, 2021, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

“I want.” It’s our great downfall.

Stop beating around the bush! Produce an explanation in your own words, please.

jlisenbe · Apr 8, 2021, 03:46 PM

I went to Bible College for two years. I have read that passage probably a hundred times and studied it repeatedly. If you want to know something, then put out some effort. Nothing worthwhile is cheap.

I will give you this much help. "Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone."

Wondergirl · Apr 8, 2021, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I went to Bible College for two years. I have read that passage probably a hundred times and studied it repeatedly. If you want to know something, then put out some effort. Nothing worthwhile is cheap.

I will give you this much help. "Salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone."

I went to a Bible college for FOUR years.

We're not talking about salvation. We're talking about God's unconditional love for us.