[paraclete]

and you don't even need a gun

China has rampted up it's trade war with Australia to the extent that it has caused serious problems for the Chinese population.

Since October no Australian coal has been unloaded in China with some 70-100 ships standing offshore with loads of coal, but Chinese power stations need the coal and they are experiencing power system shutdowns. This is self inflicted misery and rather than giving Australia headaches they have inflicted more damage on themselves.

So The Chinese will not enjoy Australian lobster and wine for Christmas because of their shortsightedness, their beer will cost more and be of poorer quality, they will not enjoy Australian beef and lamb. Come Chinese New Year they will be in significant trouble

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-12-...-coal/12993418

This is what a CCP planned economy gets you

[tomder55]

and here I thought you favored a planned economy. If they can't burn coal then the powers that be at the Paris Climate agreement will be pleased. Xi said that China will reach peak emissions by 2030 instead of the 2060 goal agreed upon . wooohooo !!
Doesn't matter ....almost none of the countries are on a trajectory to achieve the unrealistic goals set by the Paris agreement . As always it is not the results that matter in the progressive world ..... it is the intent that matters .

Do the Chinese really eat a lot of Aussie lobster; beef ,lamb and drink a lot of Aussie wine ? and why couldn't they get it from other trade partners ? The coal I get . Aussie is the biggest exporter of that dirty energy . But there is no shortage of other countries that could supply them .Mozambique , Mongolia, Philippines ,and Canada have all ramped up their exports .So it is not like the Aussies have a monopoly on the supply .What they don't have is another market quite like China . So it appears that they have you by the short hairs .

[talaniman]

Imagine that. China playing hardball to achieve it's own ends. Let them freeze and starve it's people then. Sell your dirt else where and don't send them any more. That goes for everything you trade. Or pay the tariffs.

The average Chinese probably isn't a lamb chop and wine connoisseur any way. They do have an advantage with whatever they need for population compliance too.

[paraclete]

Do the Chinese really eat a lot of Aussie lobster; beef ,lamb and drink a lot of Aussie wine ? and why couldn't they get it from other trade partners ? The coal I get . Aussie is the biggest exporter of that dirty energy . But there is no shortage of other countries that could supply them .Mozambique , Mongolia, Philippines ,and Canada have all ramped up their exports .So it is not like the Aussies have a monopoly on the supply .What they don't have is another market quite like China . So it appears that they have you by the short hairs .

Yes we have a big market in China for those things and if we were to cut off the supply of iron ore we would have then by the short and curlies. We are a rational people where as we have caused the Chinese to loose face over covid 19 and orientals don't like to loose face. What they are forcing us to do is find other markets and this we will do and it eases domestic prices so the impact isn't what they think it is. You speak of our dirt as being dirty but in fact it is high quality and sought after.

Tal I though the Trump days taught you who tariffs are paid by

[tomder55]

screw them and their losing face. Had they been up front about the virus then maybe it would've made a difference . Instead they locked down except for travel outside .

I agree with you about tariffs EXCEPT where national security is involved . Even Adam Smith recognized an exception to free trade in using tariffs to support domestic industries that are vital to national defense.

[paraclete]

Their lockdown proved effective in confining the outbreak. As they are not a truly open society we cannot be assured of all they claim but no doubt they are not as afflicted as the US. Have to wonder if it isn't just a little too good

[jlisenbe]

As I understand it, their lockdown was enforced in a pretty cruel manner.

[paraclete]

undoubtedly

[jlisenbe]

If they can't burn coal then the powers that be at the Paris Climate agreement will be pleased. Xi said that China will reach peak emissions by 2030 instead of the 2060 goal agreed upon . wooohooo !!

Yet another reason I'm glad Trump pulled out of the Paris accords. As it turns out, for us at least, our carbon emissions have been trending down for a decade.

You've taught me something new. I didn't realize Australia was such a large producer of coal. What do the Chinese want from you?

[paraclete]

to kowtow, to accept their belt and road, to be open to their investment, to break with our alliance with the US, to stop criticising them on human rights issues, to break with India and Japan and I expect to open our waters to their fisheries. In other words; to accept their exploitation

there is obviously a lot you don't know about us, we are big in many ways. in agriculture, In minerals, in medical research, in technology, in land mass, it is just our population is smaller

[tomder55]

I learned today that you are also infested with snake filled sea foam .

Huge amount of sea foam washed up in Australia (matadornetwork.com)

[jlisenbe]

I admire what Australia has done. The non-stop criticism of the United States?? Not so much.

[paraclete]

I admire what Australia has done. The non-stop criticism of the United States?? Not so much.

what you don't appreciate is a different perspective. Yes, we are far away, but far enough away to have a different perspective. I'm sure the people of the US are all great people, but the actions of your government, your President, defy understanding at times. I also don't like your multinational corporations who are predatory. All of this stems from what is described as manifest destiny, which is an arrogant, superior, attitude towards others. We now see such an attitude emerging in China

I learned today that you are also infested with snake filled sea foam .

Huge amount of sea foam washed up in Australia (matadornetwork.com)

Storms do sometimes create sea foam and there are both sea snakes and others washed down in flooding. We have had some very big rain events lately along our east coast. Somewhat unseasonal weather associated with la nina. The article exaggerates the extent of the problem

[Wondergirl]

All of this stems from what you described as manifest destiny, which an arrogant, superior, attitude towards others. We now see such an attitude emerging in China

Paraclete is correct:

LIST OF CONS OF MANIFEST DESTINY

1. It takes away someone’s property to give it to someone else.
People who have been living and building their homes and communities in a specific area of land can just be forcibly pushed out so the new settlers can live there.
2. It seeds dissent.
When you take away something from someone without his consent, you will stir negativity. He will naturally feel angry and will find a way to reclaim what is his.
3. It causes violence and war.
Critics of Manifest Destiny argued that the ideology resulted to the civil war and war between countries. Native Indians who were defiant in not giving up their land and culture resolved to bloodshed and conflict.
4. It leads to the oppression of people.
Settlers can enslave and kill people whose land need to be taken in the name of Manifest Destiny. This is why most of the native Indian population was annihilated.
5. It encourages the use of the name of God and religion for personal gain.
Those opposed to Manifest Destiny believed that the philosophy manipulated the words that are attributed to God and used it to justify the act of killing someone in order to take their land.
Manifest Destiny was integral in shaping the current status enjoyed by the United States today, and that is as one of the wealthiest nations in the world. But are the means in acquiring such a status just and moral? Was it all worth it? These questions can be answered by each person on his own by weighing the pros and cons.
https://flowpsychology.com/10-pros-a...ifest-destiny/

[jlisenbe]

That's a pretty fair listing, but we are being silly if we think it was a purely American occurrence. Did Australia negotiate with the natives when it took over the country? The ground of Europe is soaked with the blood of centuries of wars of conquest. African tribes routinely took land from each other. For that matter, Native Americans warred constantly with each other for land. It doesn't make it right, but it does make it wide-spread.

[Wondergirl]

That's a pretty fair listing, but we are being silly if we think it was a purely American occurrence.

No one said that.

[jlisenbe]

No one said that.

True, but no one said otherwise, and the U.S. was the only country under consideration. Few things bother me more than the many treaties we made, and then routinely violated, with Native tribes.

[paraclete]

That's a pretty fair listing, but we are being silly if we think it was a purely American occurrence. Did Australia negotiate with the natives when it took over the country? The ground of Europe is soaked with the blood of centuries of wars of conquest. African tribes routinely took land from each other. For that matter, Native Americans warred constantly with each other for land. It doesn't make it right, but it does make it wide-spread.

When the British landed in Australia they were instructed to have good relationships with the natives, they did not come with the idea of taking something that belonged to someone else but in the mistaken belief that the land was terra nullius, an entirely different concept to manifest destiny. When Cook sailed the coast of Australia he saw no evidence of civilisation in any form and in reality had little contact with natives. It was the British who conducted wars with the natives and limited affairs they were. Australia has not conducted wars with its natives and although there is much to condemn early contact, there was no civilisation here in any form, as distinct from the situation in the americas. The indigenous of Australia were, and still are, stone age peoples with no idea of nation. They refer to country which consists of some 200 patches of ill defined tribal lands. Since the indigenous had no concept of land ownership it wasn't possible to acquire land by treaty and trade. Such wars as there were weren't about land per se but the result of conflict over hunting and such

[jlisenbe]

The indigenous of Australia were, and still are, stone age peoples with no idea of nation. They refer to country which consists of some 200 patches of ill defined tribal lands. Since the indigenous had no concept of land ownership it wasn't possible to acquire land by treaty and trade. Such wars as there were weren't about land per se but the result of conflict over hunting and such

I'm not sure what your point is. Is it OK to practice a manifest destiny against people as long as they are "stone age peoples" with "no concept of land ownership"? I bet they felt the areas where they lived and hunted were pretty important to them.

[paraclete]

I'm not sure what your point is. Is it OK to practice a manifest destiny against people as long as they are "stone age peoples" with "no concept of land ownership"? I bet they felt the areas where they lived and hunted were pretty important to them.

As I said not manifest destiny but a British concept of Terra Nullius, land belonging to no one. Of course the areas were important to them but their concept was the animals and what grew naturally on the land was theirs and what the white man built, and his animals, and what he produced from labour was his. When white development made game and native produce scarce, conflict ensued. Sort of like the american destruction of the buffalo. Originally white settlers occupied only small parcels of land. I live in a place which was home to a famed aboriginal warrior Windradyne, who fought a short war against some settlers, those who obviously possessed this stupid concept of manifest destiny. You could liken him to your Geronimo