[Athos]

Dedicated to those here who oppose socialism and yet have not the slightest idea what socialism is. When asked, the answers ranged from outright refusal to say, to cliches without supporting detail, to a strange explanation describing capitalism as socialism.

The following may help.

The myth of Democrats being Soviet-style or radical socialists is still widely believed. Socialism is against the private ownership of the means of production (capitalism). That is not the position of the Democratic Party, the Democrats in Congress, or of Biden, Harris, or even of Sanders. What almost all Democrats advocate is a capitalist economy with proper regulation of business and social programs to provide healthcare, education, and economic security to their citizens. Not radical stuff at all.


Of course, in the minds of the far-right all Democrats are far-left radicals and Soviet-style socialists. The Democratic Party is made up of a much broader coalition of political views than the Republican Party. Within the Democratic Party there is a broad range of views on healthcare, gun control, national defense, reproductive rights, education, taxes, etc. - and all those views are openly debated. For example, while all of the Democratic presidential primary candidates advocated healthcare coverage for all, there were differing policies on how to best achieve that. The Republicans had basically one position, repeal Obamacare.


Diversity of thought on policy began to dwindle (and has all but vanished) in the Republican Party in the 1980s after the Party adopted, without compromise, Reaganomics and the social agenda of the evangelical Christian Right: cut taxes no matter the deficit, deregulate business regardless of consequences, oppose abortion, oppose gay marriage, allow evangelical Christian beliefs preferential treatment above other religions, oppose all gun control, repeal civil rights reforms, and basically erode federal authority so states can roll back reforms in civil rights and equality for minorities in education, housing, and employment.


The Republican Party has no large counterpart in any other free, democratic, industrialized nation. It is an anomaly in modern politics, stuck in a time warp that conservative parties in other free democracies left in the early to mid twentieth century.

[jlisenbe]

The myth of Democrats being Soviet-style or radical socialists is still widely believed.

Interesting that you have to begin, right out of the blocks, by qualifying the terms. It starts out, you said, being a discussion about socialism which only the great you knows anything about, and then transitions into only a certain category of socialism. So you muddy the waters right from the beginning.

social programs to provide healthcare, education, and economic security to their citizens. Not radical stuff at all.

Not radical until the time comes to figure out how to pay for all of that. That's when the radical element comes in, which is why it is NEVER discussed by dems. Or for that matter to discuss how it is that one American somehow has a right to another American's money to use to pay for his or her education or hospital care.

[paraclete]

You can rail and rant against socialism from within your prism of failing capitalism if you want, because your only argument is OPM, the point that you don't want to pay one penny to advantage anyone else.

Now if you embraced the idea that you don't need any more aircraft carriers you could afford better health care for your dying masses. It is truly a matter of priorities and the military imperative is not the priority, that just feeds paranoia

[jlisenbe]

Now if you embraced the idea that you don't need any more aircraft carriers you could afford better health care for your dying masses. It is truly a matter of priorities and the military imperative is not the priority, that just feeds paranoia

I've been very clear about that. I'd like to see us retire a couple of carriers and then tell countries like yours that the military gravy train has been put under a shed. You will now have to pony up and prepare to defend yourselves. We will be allies, but we will not bankrupt ourselves to carry an inappropriate share of the burden.

But even if we reduce defense spending, we will be nowhere near a balanced budget. We are eventually going to have to face the music on this deal.

I would much rather exist in our medical care system than yours.

What you call capitalism I would refer to as free enterprise. It's the greatest economic development of all time and goes hand in glove with the general concept of liberty which socialism tends to limit.

[Wondergirl]

What you call capitalism I would refer to as free enterprise. It's the greatest economic development of all time and goes hand in glove with the general concept of liberty which socialism tends to limit.

You don't read and retain my correct definitions, nor do you read and retain Athos' correct definitions.

[paraclete]

I've been very clear about that. I'd like to see us retire a couple of carriers and then tell countries like yours that the military gravy train has been put under a shed. You will now have to pony up and prepare to defend yourselves. We will be allies, but we will not bankrupt ourselves to carry an inappropriate share of the burden.

But even if we reduce defense spending, we will be nowhere near a balanced budget. We are eventually going to have to face the music on this deal.

I would much rather exist in our medical care system than yours.

What you call capitalism I would refer to as free enterprise. It's the greatest economic development of all time and goes hand in glove with the general concept of liberty which socialism tends to limit.

Continue to lie to yourself, you know nothing about our medical system and it certainly is superior to yours because no one has to go without medical care because of cost. No one is bankrupted to obtain medical care here. Capitalism, as you call it, has certain disadvantages, notably that it is based on exploitation..The brand of free enterprise you practise lacks social responsibility

My country has increased its military expenditure but it all takes time. We are responding to threats generated by your belligerant foreign policy, our size makes us an easy target for your opponents, who you consistently antagonise. Witness the current attitude of China to my nation, they consider us your lapdog and treat us accordingly and why? we echoed your call for a CV19 investigation, we have participated in your "freedom of navigation" exercises, we are your ally and while we share your concerns for the treatment of Tibetians and Yughars, you treat your migrants in the same way. So take your hyprocracy and put it where the light doesn't shine

[tomder55]

Now if you embraced the idea that you don't need any more aircraft carriers you could afford better health care for your dying masses

I agree we do not need any more aircraft carriers . But the cost of a Ford class super carrier is piss in the ocean compared to the costs of socialized healthcare and all the other gimmee programs the socialists/progressive /liberals /Democrats (whatever you want to call the goodies for nothing crowd ) want . You want the REAL definition of socialism American style ? It is "gimmee..... but takey from someone else to pay for it" . I see a Mel Gibson like character instead of screaming FREEDOM !! yelling FREEBIES !!!! They want dependence on the government but they don't want the government control over their lives that comes with the deal .

[tomder55]

My country has increased its military expenditure but it all takes time. We are responding to threats generated by your belligerant foreign policy, our size makes us an easy target for your opponents, who you consistently antagonise. Witness the current attitude of China to my nation, they consider us your lapdog and treat us accordingly and why? we echoed your call for a CV19 investigation, we have participated in your "freedom of navigation" exercises, we are your ally and while we share your concerns for the treatment of Tibetians and Yughars, you treat your migrants in the same way. So take your hyprocracy and put it where the light doesn't shine

hmmm I guess you have to make a choice about which nation you want to be vassals to. China's aggression to almost all of it's neighbors is because of America ? Ok then .... I never saw your country as a nation of sheeple .

[jlisenbe]

you know nothing about our medical system and it certainly is superior to yours because no one has to go without medical care because of cost. No one is bankrupted to obtain medical care here.

I know you have to take money from person A to pay for person B's med care. That limits both persons' liberty. I much prefer my med care being an issue between my doc and me.

Capitalism, as you call it, has certain disadvantages, notably that it is based on exploitation..The brand of free enterprise you practise lacks social responsibility

Capitalism is not based on exploitation. It is based on who owns what. And as for our "brand" of free enterprise, you don't have the slightest idea what it does, or does not, lack.

My country has increased its military expenditure but it all takes time.

The great excuse. But bear in mind that I don't care what you do. I care about what we do, and that needs to be cutting military spending and then telling countries like yours to grow up and take care of yourselves. Either that, or learn to speak Chinese.

So take your hyprocracy and put it where the light doesn't shine

Your usual, well thought out logic at work.

[paraclete]

I know you have to take money from person A to pay for person B's med care. That limits both persons' liberty.

How little you know our health care is paid for by a levy on all taxpayers or private health care, no one takes from anyone else

Capitalism is not based on exploitation. It is based on who owns what.

I wonder if Adam Smith thought that

The great excuse. But bear in mind that I don't care what you do. I care about what we do, and that needs to be cutting military spending and then telling countries like yours to grow up and take care of yourselves.

I think it would be good if we stopped wasting our resources following you into wars you cannot win, It is we who pay for our participation, not you, so you owe us a debt, not the other way around

Your usual, well thought logic at work.

at least what I say is logical, not ideological rhetoric

[jlisenbe]

a levy on all taxpayers or private health care, no one takes from anyone else

You do realize the contradiction you have just posted? At any rate, when person B cannot pay for his med bill, and his tax "levy" doesn't even come close to covering it, then you take tax money from person A to help pay it. It's a concept a fifth grader can easily see and understand.

I think it would be good if we stopped wasting our resources following you into wars you cannot win, It is we who pay for our participation, not you, so you owe us a debt, not the other way around

And I'm not arguing with you about that. You don't want to participate? Fine with me. I'm just saying I don't want us spending multiple billions which allows you to get by with spending less than you should. And again, I don't care what your country does, and I say that with great respect and admiration for the Aussie people. But I care what we do. You want to let the Chinese come in and kick your tails because your military is underfunded? Go for it, but don't assume we are going to come running in to rescue you when you haven't done what you should have done to begin with. That's what I'm sick of. And reading the disrespectful, ungrateful, and hateful comments from you makes it even more sickening. I think most of our "allies" need a few years of having to get along without us to remind them of how much this country does for the rest of the unappreciative, arrogant world.

at least what I say is logical

When did you start that?

[talaniman]

Were you paying attention when your dufusist ideology was booted from office the last election?

[jlisenbe]

What does that have to do with this conversation?

[Athos]

But the cost of a Ford class super carrier is piss in the ocean compared to the costs of socialized healthcare

What is "socialized" healthcare?

and all the other gimmee programs the socialists/progressive /liberals /Democrats (whatever you want to call the goodies for nothing crowd ) want

Please name the programs the "socialists/progressive /liberals /Democrats (whatever you want to call the goodies for nothing crowd ) want.

You want the REAL definition of socialism American style ? It is "gimmee..... but takey from someone else to pay for it" .

Does that include all the programs supported by taxation? Or only the ones you don't like.

They want dependence on the government but they don't want the government control over their lives that comes with the deal .

Do you object to child labor laws? Licensing drivers? Military spending? Social Security? Etc., etc., etc.

[talaniman]

What does that have to do with this conversation?

Joe is for taxing the rich to help the poor and giving them healthcare which the dufusists like you make the rich richer and screw the poor sick people. You wingers love to use labels to denigrate others while elevating yourselves. You capitalists dufusites are no better than the socialists communists you rail against.

That's why that thinking was voted down and OUT!

[tomder55]

Child labor laws are reforms of capitalism ;not socialism


Military spending is defined in the constitution ;a mandated government service to provide for the common defense .

Licensing drivers is a state issue ;but no that is not socialism .Driving is a privilege ;not a right .A person has to be of an age and have a competence to safely drive before being permitted to do so .

Social Security ...... The government, not individuals or businesses, runs the Social Security system. It tracks Social Security earnings and benefits, approves or denies retirement benefit applications, collects taxes and distributes benefits . Social security is socialism and I do not like the ponzi scheme at all .

[jlisenbe]

Joe is for taxing the rich to help the poor and giving them healthcare which the dufusists like you make the rich richer and screw the poor sick people. You wingers love to use labels to denigrate others while elevating yourselves. You capitalists dufusites are no better than the socialists communists you rail against.

If you think that Biden's tax increases will in any way pay for healthcare for all, then you have been drinking the Biden kool aid for waaayyyyyy too long. It's just another liberal fantasy. It's like pretending that putting a gallon of gas into a car will enable a trip of a thousand miles. It's ludicrous.

But I EAGERLY anticipate the day when they increase the taxes on your bxtt in order to pay for all of this Alice in Wonderland approach, and to hear you howling when they force you to actually pony up and pay for these things with some of your own money which you have absolutely no present intention of doing. It's just another episode of your painless (for you) charitable intentions. "I love poor people so much that I am willing to make other people help them out."

[Wondergirl]

How little you know our health care is paid for by a levy on all taxpayers or private health care, no one takes from anyone else

Exactly!
https://www.schumachercargo.com/aust...icare%20system.

[jlisenbe]

A person would have to be an idiot to not understand that when a low income person gets an operation, they have not even come close to paying for that operation with their "levy". So where do you suppose the extra money comes from?

[paraclete]

You do realize the contradiction you have just posted? At any rate, when person B cannot pay for his med bill, and his tax "levy" doesn't even come close to covering it, then you take tax money from person A to help pay it. It's a concept a fifth grader can easily see and understand.

You are like a broken record, endlessly repeating yourself

And I'm not arguing with you about that. You don't want to participate? Fine with me. I'm just saying I don't want us spending multiple billions which allows you to get by with spending less than you should. And again, I don't care what your country does, and I say that with great respect and admiration for the Aussie people. But I care what we do. You want to let the Chinese come in and kick your tails because your military is underfunded? Go for it, but don't assume we are going to come running in to rescue you when you haven't done what you should have done to begin with. That's what I'm sick of. And reading the disrespectful, ungrateful, and hateful comments from you makes it even more sickening. I think most of our "allies" need a few years of having to get along without us to remind them of how much this country does for the rest of the unappreciative, arrogant world.

No one asked you to spend billions on the military and neglect your own population. No one asked you to start wars that drag on for years with failure as the ineveitable result. You speak of the rest of the world as arrogant, but it is you who are arrogant. What have we got to be grateful for? It is you who committed yourselves only after you were attacked in both WWI and WWII, it is your arrogant actions that brought the Chinese into the Korean war, need I go on

When did you start that?

It has always been so