[Athos]

Thank you for the reply. It was most enlightening.

I see that when you disagree with something, you call it "socialism" even thought it has nothing to do with socialism. You should ask yourself why you do that.

For example:

I did not say they are unacceptable but it depends on how you implement them,

As indicated above, your objection is NOT due to socialism, but how they are implemented.

your last attempt at health care was a farce, not socialist, but capitalist advantaging big business.

So it is not socialism, but capitalism. That's quite a difference from your anti-socialist platform, wouldn't you say?

Putting government money into that farce called climate change is just another way of advantaging big business.

Another vote against CAPITALISM, not socialism!

You have welfare programs without addressing minimum livable wages just subsidising big business.

Agreed that welfare, as you indicate, should be MORE socialistic, and less a big business subsidy, aka Capitalism.

True socialism would nationalise those big businesses.

Of course, therefore none of the programs at issue here are socialism since no big businesses are nationalized.

By all means have free tertiary education, free secondary education, free elementary education but don't spend the money on useless liberal oriented courses.

Yet another non-socialist position, just one disagreeing with the education curriculum.

I know about shutdowns, they were successfully implemented here and we are down to zero community infection but it took real leadership curtailing individual freedoms, not popular and killed many small businesses.

Amazing! Every single thing you wrote here in reply has everything to do with Capitalism, and nothing to do with socialism.

I can't see it happening there

Wait a bit. What you want will begin to happen with Biden in two months.

[talaniman]

The thing about labels is they are seldom accurate.

[Athos]

The thing about labels is they are seldom accurate.

Especially when people have no clue what they mean.

[paraclete]

I have lived under more socialistic programs than you have so I know about socialism. We are not Sweden but what socialism does is tax the population to implement measures which may or may not be an advantage to the population and in the process some freedoms are curtailed. Every few years we elect a government with serious socialistic leanings but we grow tired of them quickly but they have given us universal health care, a water management plan which has strangled irrigation and many small towns, a carbon trading scheme which had to be dismantled, a tax on mining that didn't raise revenue, a disability scheme that soaks up money like a sponge.

I expect that Biden/Harris will lose their lustre quickly

[jlisenbe]

I expect that Biden/Harris will lose their lustre quickly

Prep for a repub Congress in 2022.

[paraclete]

Yes you could hope for change, your house has been very obstructionist

[Athos]

I have lived under more socialistic programs than you have so I know about socialism.

Apparently, you don't (know more about socialism). That's based on your previous answer where you showed a remarkable lack of understanding as to what socialism is.

We are not Sweden but what socialism does is tax the population to implement measures which may or may not be an advantage to the population and in the process some freedoms are curtailed.

All government systems can be responsible for those things, not just socialism.

Every few years we elect a government with serious socialistic leanings but we grow tired of them quickly but they have given us universal health care

What is wrong with your health care?

(and) a water management plan which has strangled irrigation and many small towns, a carbon trading scheme which had to be dismantled, a tax on mining that didn't raise revenue, a disability scheme that soaks up money like a sponge.

None of these measures are exclusively defined as socialism.

[paraclete]

Apparently, you don't (know more about socialism). That's based on your previous answer where you showed a remarkable lack of understanding as to what socialism is.



All government systems can be responsible for those things, not just socialism.



What is wrong with your health care?



None of these measures are exclusively defined as socialism.

You just like to argue, socialism is a very broad church, from died in the wool communism right across the spectrum to nazism, from the total nanny state to something like China today, a controlled economy.

Yes we have universal health care which operates alongside of a private health care system. It is a system in which the insurers don't get rich and the poor people wait in line. Every socialistic scheme implemented here is just crud, and that is what I think of socialism so argue all you like

[jlisenbe]

Turns out Trump was right about having a vaccine ready by the end of the year.

[Athos]

You just like to argue,

Only to correct misinformation.

Yes we have universal health care which operates alongside of a private health care system.

I take it this means you approve of the socialist program called universal health care when it is accompanied by a private health care system.

Every socialistic scheme implemented here is just crud, and that is what I think of socialism so argue all you like

You're pretty short on facts. You just think whatever you don't like is "crud". That's fine, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're making some kind of argument against socialism.

In fact, you seem more anti-capitalism than anything else.

[talaniman]

The whole right wing conservative definition is NUTS, and more about political smears than functional fiscal policy. I get the agenda to shrink government and privatize every "business" under the sun, but without clear regulations to govern such a policy then it's just unbridled capitalism and shift all power to a plutocracy run by oligarchs.

Supply side economics on steroids or involuntary slavery of the masses.

[jlisenbe]

The whole right wing conservative definition is NUTS

Definition of what?

[talaniman]

Socialism was the topic, but we can include communism for the sake of discussion.

[jlisenbe]

I still don't get you. You are complaining about a right wing definition of, I suppose, socialism, but I still don't know what you think that definition is.

[paraclete]

socialism ~ government intervention and regulation, government funded projects, taxation to fund government initiatives. This is what capitalism calls socialism

[talaniman]

Sounds like a logical common sense approach to governance to me so just because capitalists say these things are bad are they truly, since every government including mine and yours does those very things as a matter of course.

[Athos]

socialism ~ government intervention and regulation, government funded projects, taxation to fund government initiatives. This is what capitalism calls socialism

Like the US Marines, roads and bridges, government outlawing child labor, unemployment insurance, a 40 hour work week, paid holidays, and on and on - all socialism according to your definition. Thank God for socialism.

[talaniman]

It would seem that a healthy balance of policy would be ideal, given the human ability to get carried away.

[Athos]

It would seem that a healthy balance of policy would be ideal, given the human ability to get carried away.

Problem with socialism is that the anti-socialism crowd here doesn't have a clue what socialism is other than what they've learned as platitudes that disses the idea without any explanation other than to say "bunch a commies".

We have yet to have a coherent picture of socialism in the USA. Of the three supporters here, one couldn't answer out of fear he would be challenged, another never followed up with details after the usual platitudes, and the third is just wacky and confused.

[paraclete]

Problem with socialism is that the anti-socialism crowd here doesn't have a clue what socialism is other than what they've learned as platitudes that disses the idea without any explanation other than to say "bunch a commies".

We have yet to have a coherent picture of socialism in the USA. Of the three supporters here, one couldn't answer out of fear he would be challenged, another never followed up with details after the usual platitudes, and the third is just wacky and confused.

coherent picture

No you have a very confused picture. Don't include me among your supporters of socialism but don't include me among your supporters of capitalism. Unbridled socialism is bad as the USSR and Germany proved in the last century and China proves today but also unbridled capitalism is bad too because it is exploitative as you see today. You see everything through the prism of the USA, but there is a distorted picture, like a Picasso painting. Socialism falls down because its programs must be supported with taxation or large scale borrowings