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    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #201

    Oct 26, 2020, 02:04 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    but it is a fact, but not one that can be modelled.
    Your "fact" is that global warming is caused by the earth passing through "hot nebula gasses". Please proved a link that proves this nebula theory.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #202

    Oct 26, 2020, 02:37 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Number one greenhouse gas by far is water vapor.

    This is a perfect example of a half-truth that Trump and his supporters are so fond of.

    Water vapor as a greenhouse gas is the RESULT of greenhouse gases. CO2, methane, and nitrous oxide WARM the surface thereby leading to greater evaporation into the atmosphere. By adding a high amount of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, the result will consist in warmer temperatures.

    However, water vapor is not the cause of this warming. In this case, anthropogenic emissions of CO2, methane, and other gases are warming the Earth. This rising average temperature increases evaporation rates and atmospheric water vapor concentrations. Those, in turn, result in additional warming.


    If concentrations of greenhouse gases are reduced, the planet will cool and the water vapor feedback will work the opposite way: lower temperatures lead to lower atmospheric water vapor concentrations, further cooling the Earth. Water vapor will always follow, not lead, changes in long-lived greenhouse gases.

    Claims that water vapor is the “dominant” driver of recently observed climate change are spurious at best. For those who still don't understand, excessive water vapor is caused by CO2 and the further increase of water vapor is the result of a feedback loop.

    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    In order to offer an real solutions to our supposed problems we have to radically change the way our societies operate. Unnecessary travel needs to be curtailed, population controlled, food production radically controlled, overconsumption curtailed
    This reads like you DO believe in global warming, but disagree on how to confront it.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #203

    Oct 26, 2020, 03:26 AM
    The US, France, Germany, Italy, India, Russia, Brazil and the rest of the world can't stop C-19 , but Quid in a basement in Delaware has a plan!
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #204

    Oct 26, 2020, 05:22 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post






    This reads like you DO believe in global warming, but disagree on how to confront it.
    I believe the climate is changing has been for thousands of years. our life span is too short to see the long term so we focus on the short term but in reality it is not in our hands. Even if all carbon emissions stopped immediately it would not have the desired effect because other factors are in play. The Sun is hotter, the nebula exists and global warming is a religion
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #205

    Oct 26, 2020, 05:36 AM
    This is a perfect example of a half-truth that Trump and his supporters are so fond of.
    It's amazing how everything for you comes down to hating Trump. Well, I don't think the NASA website is "Trump and his supporters". Yes, water vapor MARGINALLY is itself affected by global temps, but it is still the primary greenhouse gas of the atmosphere. That's not a political statement. It is simply beyond argument.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #206

    Oct 26, 2020, 06:02 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    the nebula exists
    Again, please provide proof and/or links that support your theory of the existence of a nebula whose hot gasses are responsible for climate change. If you won't, or cannot, your theory will simply be dismissed as the ravings of a (you fill in the blank)
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #207

    Oct 26, 2020, 06:04 AM
    Please provide a rational plan for transitioning entirely away from fossil fuels at any time in the next thirty years. Also, please acknowledge the plain truth that the reduction in carbon emissions achieved in the U.S. in the past decade has been the result of more widespread use of natural gas, a fuel that is now in abundance thanks to the very fracking that the Harris/Biden ticket will do away with.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #208

    Oct 26, 2020, 06:16 AM
    I believe the climate is changing has been for thousands of years.
    exactly . I saw a bumper sticker that said " Climate Change Happens " The glaciers have been receding since the ice age.
    The Sun is hotter,
    Not sure if we will see the cooling that will come with the Grand Solar Minimum we are entering . It was no coincidence that an increase in sunspot activity and an increase in global temperatures happened concurrently. The climate has seen great fluctuations within times recorded by humans which is in fact a very short time frame in world history. The Little Ice Age we are coming out of began about 1250 . Glaciers began to grow .Warm summers began to be undependable around 1300. Thames river would freeze over,the Brits would have river festivals .



    During the American Revolution the waters around NY became iced over . One could walk across from NJ to Staten Island to Manhattan on the ice .


    Before that there was the period called the Medieval Warm period that lasted from around 950 to 1250. During that time there were vineyards in England . Vikings farmed in Greenland . Norse settlement thrived from Greenland to Iceland and probably to North America("Vinland" ). They disappeared by the 15th century during the Little Ice Age. People in Europe thrived in that climate.By contrast the Justinian plague pandemic swept through the Mediterranean between 541 and 543 AD, striking Constantinople and killing millions of people in the following centuries during the Little Ice Age . It was a period of plague ,pandemic ,and famine .
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #209

    Oct 26, 2020, 06:24 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    It was a period of plague ,pandemic ,and famine .
    Therefore, we should ignore present-day problems? How much of the past warming was caused by CO2 and its offspring water vapor? Did they have cars and buses and machinery in 1250AD?

    And what's your theory on nebula gas?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #210

    Oct 26, 2020, 06:53 AM
    I don't have a theory about nebula gas.

    I have never said ignore emission issues . If we were serious about that we would be transitioning to electricity derived from nuclear. My view is that the energy that will allow us to transition to other future (so called )"clean" energy is natural gas . It really is the bridge until we come up with a means to use fusion , or perhaps the flux capacitor for all I know . It is my view that renewables are not really renewable because they need rare earth minerals to make them viable ;and because they are not dependable sources . Wind does not always turn turbines and there are cloudy days that impact solar generation . They will always be secondary sources that need reliable back up that for now depends on fossil fuel .

    The US through the use of clean burning natural gas has greatly reduced our greenhouse emissions with natural gas emitting almost half the levels of C02 compared to coal. We have taken great strides to achieve goals established by the Paris Accords . But those accords were designed to punish the US and western Europe while giving a pass to huge polluters China and India . Trump was right to pull out of that farce .
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #211

    Oct 26, 2020, 07:01 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    I don't have a theory about nebula gas.

    I have never said ignore emission issues . If we were serious about that we would be transitioning to electricity derived from nuclear. My view is that the energy that will allow us to transition to other future (so called )"clean" energy is natural gas . It really is the bridge until we come up with a means to use fusion , or perhaps the flux capacitor for all I know . It is my view that renewables are not really renewable because they need rare earth minerals to make them viable ;and because they are not dependable sources . Wind does not always turn turbines and there are cloudy days that impact solar generation . They will always be secondary sources that need reliable back up that for now depends on fossil fuel .

    The US through the use of clean burning natural gas has greatly reduced our greenhouse emissions with natural gas emitting almost half the levels of C02 compared to coal. We have taken great strides to achieve goals established by the Paris Accords . But those accords were designed to punish the US and western Europe while giving a pass to huge polluters China and India . Trump was right to pull out of that farce .
    I pretty much agree with most of what you've said. I disagree about the Paris Accord, and I'm glad you're without a theory on nebula gas.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #212

    Oct 26, 2020, 07:01 AM
    My view is that the energy that will allow us to transition to other future (so called )"clean" energy is natural gas . It really is the bridge...

    Wind does not always turn turbines and there are cloudy days that impact solar generation . They will always be secondary sources that need reliable back up that for now depends on fossil fuel .

    Trump was right to pull out of that farce .
    All true. Natural gas is the fuel we would be longing for if we didn't have it. Battery powered vehicles have potential if the battery situation can be improved upon. I don't expect nuclear to ever gain traction again since there is so much fear surrounding it.

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