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    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #21

    Oct 5, 2020, 08:06 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Because it is?
    No it is NOT.

    Why are you "personally" against abortion? Isn't your position kind of like saying you would never torture a dog since you are personally opposed to it, but you don't want to restrict someone else's right to do so?
    If you tortured your dog I would call the authorities since it is against most local laws. Unlike the pro life crowd that advocates murdering abortion doctors, shaming, and denying OTHER care for poor people.

    Tal, you are basically saying that it's wrong to expect an adult to act like an adult and carry out her responsibilities to the child she became pregnant with. Same thing with the dad. It's the same as saying that we should expect adults to act like children.
    Bullying poor people is not my idea of good guidance or ministering to obvious needs. It's like putting a starving man in jail for stealing bread.

    You are exactly right. I don't want the responsibility. That's why I'm not the baby's father. And guess what? You don't either. If you did, you would be out there today working to help young moms and doing that with your own money. Saying that you want to force someone other than Tal to do it is not much of a moral position. Saying that the solution is to just kill the little unborn, unwanted bxstard doesn't strike me as a good solution. And THAT, like it or not, is the solution the "pro-choice" side is advocating for.
    The responsibility is yours when you make the choice for her. Seems your way of doing things only applies to poor people though, exclusively it almost seems to be poor women, without regard to situation, circumstance, or aptitude. That is a blatant act of discrimination, no matter how you spin the prochoice position. Pro choicers often acknowledge the need for more services and educational support to HUMANELY help people through the trauma of their "MISTAKES".

    Screw your self serving inhumane right wing morality and spin.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #22

    Oct 5, 2020, 09:17 AM
    What is or is not against the law is not the point. Millions of people around the world have been killed "legally". So I guess you are OK with that since it was not in violation of the laws in existence at that time???

    Asking people to be responsible is "bullying"? Well, that is pretty wild.

    If you think only poor people go to abortion clinics, you should come to the one I carry a sign at. You would find you are completely deceived. You should see the cars that come in. If those people are poor, then we all need to become poor so we can buy a 50K pickup truck. You're just barking about discrimination to make yourself feel better. You don't care about those women. If you did, you would be trying to help them. Bottom line...you don't know what you're talking about. Any woman who goes in that place can get help by simply asking. And you know who gives the help? If you said the pro-aborts, you would be completely wrong. They are only interested in getting the money. It is ONLY the pro-lifers who give support. That is, of course, unless they take your preferred route and let the clinic kill that bothersome, unwanted, pesky little human being so liberal dems won't have to worry about it anymore. You really like that, Tal? "Kill the little bothersome brat and let me get on my life." That's how it is, my friend.

    I sometimes get tired of talking with people who type messages from the safety of their homes and never get out and see how things really are. Put your eyes on the situation and see for yourself. Go to your local clinic. Talk with the pro-lifers. Talk with the women. Don't tell me you've done that because we both know you haven't. Learn a little, and then you can speak intelligently.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #23

    Oct 5, 2020, 09:36 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Asking people to be responsible is "bullying"? Well, that is pretty wild.
    Even if THREE methods of birth control are used, as attested to by female members of this site, a pregnancy can result. Thus, let's bring back chastity belts and institute reversible vasectomies.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #24

    Oct 5, 2020, 10:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Even if THREE methods of birth control are used, as attested to by female members of this site, a pregnancy can result. Thus, let's bring back chastity belts and institute reversible vasectomies.
    The anti-abortion crowd prefers "millions of babies murdered" to reversible vasectomies.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #25

    Oct 5, 2020, 10:25 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Physician historian Jacalyn Duffin has examined Vatican sources on 1400 miracles Overwhelmingly the miracles cited in canonizations between 1588 and 1999 are healings, and the majority entail medical care and physician testimony.
    I read the link re J. Duffin and her defense of miracles is simply, "It's a miracle if the recipient believes it's a miracle". That's a nice sentiment but it's hardly science. You seem to be supporting Vatican claims of miracles (1400 of them) but there is no proof of such claims in the article. I'm confused about what your point is.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #26

    Oct 5, 2020, 11:04 AM
    The anti-abortion crowd prefers "millions of babies murdered" to reversible vasectomies.
    Completely ridiculous statement with no basis in fact. Why would a pro-life person care about a man getting a vasectomy? And if being Catholic is a problem, then stop being a Catholic, get the vasectomy, and go to a Protestant church.

    As to birth control not working, I don't think the answer is to just kill the unborn human being. Is that your solution? "Just kill the unwanted brat!" Is that how it works for you?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #27

    Oct 5, 2020, 11:10 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    As to birth control not working, I don't think the answer is to just kill the unborn human being. Is that your solution? "Just kill the unwanted brat!" Is that how it works for you?
    What's your solution?
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #28

    Oct 5, 2020, 11:14 AM
    Have the baby. Need support? Come see the pro-lifers and you will get abundant help. I like my solution a lot better than the typical liberal dem's answer of just killing the unwanted, inconvenient little human being.

    You asked a question which I quickly answered, but you did not answer my question. Perhaps you didn't see it, so I'll repeat it. "I don't think the answer is to just kill the unborn human being. Is that your solution?"
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #29

    Oct 5, 2020, 11:22 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Science is on my side . After birth a human goes through various stages of development baby ,youth ,teen years ,adult elderly etc. We all change. That is true before birth also . A single cell human zygote, or a more developed human embryo, or human fetus is a human being and that's the way they are supposed to look at those particular periods of development.
    Do you seriously consider zygotes to be human life? When there are enormously more zygotes that are killed through menstruation than continue to development and birth, why are these products of menstruation not buried as humans are buried? Why are there no funeral services for them?

    Science can tell us when human life begins from a biological point of view. But do you agree that there is more to human life than biology? Much more? Christianity addresses this by its story in Genesis of Adam and Eve being directly created by God. They are clearly not human life until God breathes life into them - human life or "ensoulment". They are also clearly full-grown adults. Zygotes are not made "in God's image".

    The point: Science ignores, as it should, the essential quality of being human which obviously does not occur until some later time in the womb and obviously does not exist in a zygote. So who or what determines the beginning of human life as described here? Religon has an answer as does philosophy. Neither is perfectly true, but it is an attempt to answer the question.

    For thousands of years, human life was thought to begin at "quickening" - the sensation a woman feels as the fetus is stirring in her womb. This was Aristotle's belief. Others believe a heart is the beginning of human life, still others the brain. Viability outside the womb is an indicator of human life's beginning. All are far beyond the zygote stage - which occurs at conception. It takes about 24 weeks for a fetus to live outside the womb.

    Not until the late 19th century does human life beginning at conception enter the discussion. By the early 20th century, the Catholic Church had declared abortion to be mortal sin.

    Coincidentally, a woman's movement had started around 1850 as women began to enter more fully into what was then a male-dominated society. Both voting and working appeared to be other than woman's traditional role in the home. Forbidding abortion was one way to keep woman tied to the home. In this view, abortion has its roots as murder in the anti-feminist movement of the 19th and 20th centuries. It would last until 1973.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #30

    Oct 5, 2020, 11:30 AM
    Do you seriously consider zygotes to be human life? When there are enormously more zygotes that are killed through menstruation than continue to development and birth, why are these products of menstruation not buried as humans are buried? Why are there no funeral services for them?
    You seem to be arguing that unless there is a funeral service, the living being is not human. Wouldn't that be a clearly silly idea?

    They are also clearly full-grown adults. Zygotes are not made "in God's image".
    So we are not humans made in God's image until we become adults? Uh oh. Better hide your kids from the liberal dems.

    I have never agreed with the, "It's not a living human being," argument. It is plainly living. If it's not human, then what is it? Very plainly, from the moment of conception, it is a separate, living human being.

    You mentioned the viability issue. Should the day come, and it will, when viability is pushed back to 16 or 12 weeks, or even earlier, will you revise your description of when human life begins to 16 or 12 weeks? And since you use 24 weeks, do you consider abortions after 24 weeks to be the killing of a human being?
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #31

    Oct 5, 2020, 11:38 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You seem to be arguing that unless there is a funeral service, the living being is not human.
    Not at all. I am pointing out the absurdity of considering zygotes as human life. That should have been pretty obvious to you.

    So we are not humans made in God's image until we become adults?
    Again, not at all. I was making the point that God himself made life in his image which was hardly a zygote.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #32

    Oct 5, 2020, 11:43 AM
    1. Your quote. "...why are these products of menstruation not buried as humans are buried? Why are there no funeral services for them?" Now if you don't have to have a funeral to be human, then why would it be necessary to bury a zygote for us to consider it human? Besides, when a zygote dies, the mother is typically unaware of it which would certainly at least partially explain why there is no funeral.

    2. You pointed out that Adam was an adult when God breathed the breath of life into him. Now he was not a zygote, but he was also not a teen-ager or a child. So unless you want to extend your argument to those exceptions as well, then your point makes no sense.

    I'd still like for you to answer this. "You mentioned the viability issue. Should the day come, and it will, when viability is pushed back to 16 or 12 weeks, or even earlier, will you revise your description of when human life begins to 16 or 12 weeks? And since you use 24 weeks, do you consider abortions after 24 weeks to be the killing of a human being?"
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #33

    Oct 5, 2020, 03:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    What is or is not against the law is not the point. Millions of people around the world have been killed "legally". So I guess you are OK with that since it was not in violation of the laws in existence at that time???
    I'm not okay with the taking of life period but humans are quite good at a variety of ways to do that for a variety of reasons. All pretty stupid on there face, mostly whim and impulse. Flawed choices all except hunger and self defense. Fear is not a good reason, though we have laws accepting that too.

    Asking people to be responsible is "bullying"? Well, that is pretty wild.
    You aren't asking, you demand responsibility from poor often little educated and helpless people. They are the ones you seek to punish. You do not affect those with education and resources.

    If you think only poor people go to abortion clinics, you should come to the one I carry a sign at. You would find you are completely deceived. You should see the cars that come in. If those people are poor, then we all need to become poor so we can buy a 50K pickup truck. You're just barking about discrimination to make yourself feel better. You don't care about those women. If you did, you would be trying to help them. Bottom line...you don't know what you're talking about. Any woman who goes in that place can get help by simply asking. And you know who gives the help? If you said the pro-aborts, you would be completely wrong. They are only interested in getting the money. It is ONLY the pro-lifers who give support. That is, of course, unless they take your preferred route and let the clinic kill that bothersome, unwanted, pesky little human being so liberal dems won't have to worry about it anymore. You really like that, Tal? "Kill the little bothersome brat and let me get on my life." That's how it is, my friend.
    Please explain how you know that people are going to health clinics, like PP, and others just for abortions? Is that the only services they offer?

    I sometimes get tired of talking with people who type messages from the safety of their homes and never get out and see how things really are. Put your eyes on the situation and see for yourself. Go to your local clinic. Talk with the pro-lifers. Talk with the women. Don't tell me you've done that because we both know you haven't. Learn a little, and then you can speak intelligently.
    You should never assume what another has experienced or risk making a bigger A$$ of yourself than you have proved to be by assuming. In fact I've checked all the boxes many, many times. Honestly I'm still learning and understanding after decades of actually doing.

    Protestors at clinics would rather holler and shame and spit rather than TALK.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #34

    Oct 5, 2020, 03:55 PM
    I'm not okay with the taking of life period
    Of course you are. You routinely vote for advocates of abortion which is the taking of a human life, period.

    You aren't asking, you demand responsibility from poor often little educated and helpless people. They are the ones you seek to punish. You do not affect those with education and resources.
    I'm not demanding anything. I suggest that people get married prior to sex. That way when pregnancy happens, there are two people in the equation to help, but they are free to do as they please. If a single mom asks for help, she can get lots of it from the pro-lifers. She will get nothing but a bill from your pro-abortion buddies. I will never, ever, ever adopt your strategy of just killing those pesky, unwanted children.

    The place we go to is an abortion clinic. That's the business they do. If you ever trouble yourself to go look for yourself, you'll find out.

    In fact I've checked all the boxes many, many times.
    I don't believe for one second that you've ever spent 5 minutes at an abortion clinic speaking with protestors and the women going in.

    Protestors at clinics would rather holler and shame and spit rather than TALK.
    Says the man who's too busy typing on a message board to get off his rear end and go do as I've suggested. Just a lot easier to cast accusations at people who spend their time trying to save the lives that you seem to care nothing at all about.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #35

    Oct 5, 2020, 04:06 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I suggest that people get married prior to sex.
    I did. Did you?
    That way when pregnancy happens, there are two people in the equation to help, but they are free to do as they please.
    Thus, he's free to walk out -- which he does when he hears about the pregnancy.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #36

    Oct 5, 2020, 05:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    1. Your quote. "...why are these products of menstruation not buried as humans are buried? Why are there no funeral services for them?" Now if you don't have to have a funeral to be human, then why would it be necessary to bury a zygote for us to consider it human?
    It was to show the absurdity of (fully) human life beginning at conception. You appear to have overlooked the absurdity by your question.

    Besides, when a zygote dies, the mother is typically unaware of it which would certainly at least partially explain why there is no funeral.
    Again, you are diving into the absurdity by your question.The woman is aware of it during menstruation. Look up "menstruation" to understand your own question.

    2. You pointed out that Adam was an adult when God breathed the breath of life into him. Now he was not a zygote, but he was also not a teen-ager or a child. So unless you want to extend your argument to those exceptions as well, then your point makes no sense.
    I took the example from the book of Genesis in the Bible. If God had created mankind as a teenager or a child, the Bible would have said so - and so would I.

    I'd still like for you to answer this. "You mentioned the viability issue. Should the day come, and it will, when viability is pushed back to 16 or 12 weeks, or even earlier, will you revise your description of when human life begins to 16 or 12 weeks? And since you use 24 weeks, do you consider abortions after 24 weeks to be the killing of a human being?"
    Viability at 24 weeks is an average. It can be somewhat longer or sooner. In any case, viability was mentioned along with the heart and the brain as ways some determine the beginning of life. As for me, I believe Roe V. Wade is the best rule available re abortion.
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    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #37

    Oct 5, 2020, 06:01 PM
    These are very old arguments canvassed many times on AMHD maybe a new SCOTUS will reverse previous decisions but it won't stop abortion, the slaughter of the innocents will continue as people worship in the temple of self
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #38

    Oct 5, 2020, 06:19 PM
    I did. Did you?
    Yes.

    Thus, he's free to walk out -- which he does when he hears about the pregnancy.
    It does happen, but it's much less likely that the boyfriend walking out, and the hub who walks out gets hit with alimony and child support as well he should. It is still a much, much better situation.

    I certainly didn't walk out. Did your husband?

    Athos, the woman is not aware of a fertilized egg that never implants.

    You can't appeal to Adam. Your logic made no sense.

    I do appreciate you answering the question. I am dismayed that you brought up the issue of viability and then proceeded to toss it out, but at least you did answer the question.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #39

    Oct 5, 2020, 06:49 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    It does happen, but it's much less likely that the boyfriend walking out, and the hub who walks out gets hit with alimony and child support as well he should. It is still a much, much better situation.
    If I were the child and my father disppears or walks out because I exist, I'd rather be dead. I'd want to be born into a stable situation.
    I certainly didn't walk out. Did your husband?
    Nope. I've been stuck with him for over 50 years.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #40

    Oct 5, 2020, 08:02 PM
    If I were the child and my father disppears or walks out because I exist, I'd rather be dead. I'd want to be born into a stable situation.
    So you're suggesting we just kill the child at that point? I mean it's obvious you are suggesting it would make an abortion acceptable, so if that's the case, then why not a six year old?

    I was a principal and teacher for more than thirty years. I saw MANY kids go through that exact situation. Not a single one ever indicated they would rather be dead. Your conjecture is very sad.

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