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    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #61

    Dec 29, 2020, 10:00 PM
    Athos,
    I need some clarification of terms. What, to you, constitutes "proof"? What is it that is lacking in my response?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #62

    Dec 30, 2020, 05:26 AM
    What, to you, constitutes "proof"?
    Great question.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #63

    Jan 8, 2021, 05:23 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    Athos,
    I need some clarification of terms. What, to you, constitutes "proof"? What is it that is lacking in my response?
    There is nothing lacking in your response.

    “Proof” in quotes means I am not using the word in its literal sense and am using it in a figurative sense as in Biblical “proofs” - the serpent in the Garden, Satan conversing with God in Job, etc.,etc.

    What I did hope for was an explanation of your belief in Satan. You simply offered it as is, finding no reason to believe otherwise. You wrote, “ Why do It believe in Satan? I see no reason not to. I have since childhood and haven't found any real evidence that The Adversary doesn't exist. If anything, human nature is strong evidence that something royally screwed us up.”

    “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence”. As WG pointed out, Satan is often used as an scapegoat for human nature.

    I accept and respect your belief and would not comment on a belief alone unless that belief is supported by reasons which I may or may not agree with.

    I hope that serves as the clarification you asked for.

    PS – Your replies are few and far between. Please understand that I don't expect you to engage in the discussion if you don't want to. I enjoy intelligent conversation on the subject of religion - I even have some Greek questions for you re the New Testament. Maybe some other time.
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #64

    Mar 1, 2021, 05:34 PM
    I guess biblical proofs are all I need. I understand that others need more than that, but it's good enough for me.

    I haven't been on much, largely because I changed computers and don't have this site bookmarked. Gotta fix that one of these days...
    YGR's Avatar
    YGR Posts: 11, Reputation: 1
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    #65

    Sep 8, 2022, 09:39 PM
    Allow me to say that regardless of the fact that I believe in God and in his Only Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, both good and evil are born and proceed from the hearts of us humans. In a certain sense, Satan is nothing more than the evil that could come from someone's heart. There is free will, the decision to do good or evil knowing that the evil that is done is paid. I think this would be a good way to explain to those people who lack understanding what Satan could mean in a certain sense.
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #66

    Feb 27, 2023, 09:28 PM
    Athos,
    I need some clarification of terms. What, to you, constitutes "proof"?
    I'd look at the Curse. God [verbaly] curses the animal itself...and then he curses the Devil, Oddly enough he doesn't curse Man.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #67

    Mar 2, 2023, 09:03 AM
    both good and evil are born and proceed from the hearts of us humans. In a certain sense, Satan is nothing more than the evil that could come from someone's heart.
    I just don't think that can be supported from the Bible. There is no indication that the personage of the devil simply refers to the evil in human hearts. It would really be difficult to explain the three temptations of Christ by using that idea.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #68

    Mar 2, 2023, 10:01 AM
    During His ministry Jesus told this story to audiences to explain His own inner experiences with temptations. He put it in the form of a parable, an allegory, so His listeners would more easily understand the idea of temptation and how to respond.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #69

    Mar 2, 2023, 12:09 PM
    There is absolutely nothing to support such a view. Even worse, in the Gospel accounts it is not Jesus speaking. The Gospel authors are recounting the story and certainly present it as a genuine event. If it had been simply related to them as an allegory, then it would have been the easiest thing in the world to have said, "Jesus once told a parable about temptation."
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #70

    Mar 2, 2023, 01:09 PM
    Allow me to say that regardless of the fact
    Allowing you to say - while disregarding [that] fact - Satan could mean what "you say," in a certain sense.
    The real issue is whether we actually know God through Jesus.

    Reading the God-breathed Bible does not mean looking at biblical words and then thinking your own thoughts, or feeling your own feelings or doing your own thing. That’s not reading. At least, Jesus didn’t think it was reading.
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #71

    Mar 4, 2023, 10:15 AM
    During His ministry Jesus told this story to audiences to explain His own inner experiences with temptations. He put it in the form of a parable, an allegory, so His listeners would more easily understand the idea of temptation and how to respond.
    This is the dictionary definition of "reaching".
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #72

    Mar 4, 2023, 10:35 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    This is the dictionary definition of "reaching".
    Where is that mountain Jesus and Satan were on to see all over the Earth?

    From Wikipedia:
    Writers including William Barclay have pointed to the fact that there is "no mountain high enough in all the world to see the whole world" as indication of the non-literal nature of the event, and that the narrative portrays what was going on inside Jesus' mind.[12]
    12. Barclay, Discovering Jesus p.  22.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #73

    Mar 4, 2023, 10:45 AM
    Where is that mountain Jesus and Satan were on to see all over the Earth?
    What you and I can see is one thing. What the devil can see, and certainly what Jesus can see, is an entirely different matter, so I think the height of the mountain is not an important point. To me, your objection is akin to saying that Jesus could not have raised a man from the dead since we all know that dead people don't come back to life.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #74

    Mar 4, 2023, 11:17 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    What you and I can see is one thing. What the devil can see, and certainly what Jesus can see, is an entirely different matter, so I think the height of the mountain is not an important point. To me, your objection is akin to saying that Jesus could not have raised a man from the dead since we all know that dead people don't come back to life.
    Why did they have to go to the top of a mountain? (That further validates the idea that this is an allegory.)

    Your "dead people" (faux) analogy makes no sense as a comparison.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #75

    Mar 4, 2023, 12:05 PM
    Using that approach, you would have to consider the entire Gospel story, and especially the resurrection, to be nothing more than one giant allegory since it is all filled with supernatural events and difficult to understand events. Why, for instance, did Jesus need to find a mountain for his transfiguration? Was elevation even remotely necessary?

    As I said earlier, if the Gospel writers intended for us to see this as an allegory, then it would have been simple to introduce it that way as they did on many other occasions. "Jesus told a parable about temptation. It seems a man met "the devil" in the wilderness..."

    I think DW nailed it. You're really reaching. Sometimes I think the first thing the devil does is try to convince a person that he does not exist.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #76

    Mar 4, 2023, 12:45 PM
    The Bible, and NT especially, are filled with allegories and metaphors and parables. The people of that time when the Bible was written were simple, usually uneducated people who were storytellers themselves and wanted to have complex ideas and teachings put into a simple form so they could better understand.

    Apparently you are a literalist. Do you believe the nursery rhyme "Jack and Jill" really happened, that Jack fell down and broke his crown? Actually, it's an allegory about ambitions, about determination and what to do when you fall.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #77

    Mar 4, 2023, 01:45 PM
    Because the Bible does contain allegories does not mean EVERYTHING in an allegory. The allegories of the teachings of Christ are pretty obviously laid out. The story of the temptation does not meet those patterns. Is the resurrection an allegory? Is the birth of Christ an allegory? Is the cross an allegory? Where does your theory end???

    Everyone is a literalist, and everyone believes in allegories, so your second paragraph is kind of meaningless. Your projected meaning has no support in the Bible at all. It is plainly presented as being a real event.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #78

    Mar 4, 2023, 01:53 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Because the Bible does contain allegories does not mean EVERYTHING in an allegory.
    I didn't say everything is.
    The allegories of the teachings of Christ are pretty obviously laid out. The story of the temptation does not meet those patterns.
    Of course it does in a number of ways.
    Everyone is a literalist
    Hardly! I certainly am not. Even Trump isn't.
    and everyone believes in allegories
    You don't.
    It is plainly presented as being a real event.
    That's how allegories work, how and why they are created.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #79

    Mar 4, 2023, 04:19 PM
    Hardly! I certainly am not. Even Trump isn't.
    I should have said, "Everyone takes some passages literally." Certainly you take some parts of the Bible literally. You believe, for instance, that God literally loves people. You believe that Trump was literally the pres. And I, of course, believe the parables were allegorical. So your statements are somewhat misguided. At any rate, it is impossible to communicate without regarding at least some statements to be literal. It would be mass chaos otherwise.



    As to how allegories work, a true story can have an allegorical meaning. It doesn't mean it's not a true story. You are confused.

    Of course it does in a number of ways.
    Not in the pattern of the Gospel accounts.
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #80

    Mar 4, 2023, 05:11 PM
    The two of you have gone through this before...many, many times before.

    Might I suggest; try and read the Bible as you would any other story...maybe even as a child [trying] to read a children's storybook.

    It's very important that we learn to read our thoughts as a result of knowing our Bibles, not learning from our Bibles as a result of what we have read in our thoughts.

    The Bible is a story, they are all Parables even Alegorys...the story of God, the story of life, the story of truth, the Story of Creation...

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