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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #41

    Dec 8, 2020, 08:21 PM
    What is your Scriptural evidence for that?
    You asked how they would have known the story. It's a completely plausible explanation. In fact, it would have been odd if he had NOT told them.

    If your position is that the son of God can do anything to support your belief,
    Your first twelve words are correct.

    The issue is the myth of Jesus in the desert. Seeing one story as a myth does not mean the entire Bible story is lost.
    The issue was your contention that Jesus could not have fasted for forty days in the desert. You are plainly placing natural limits on your assessment. If you do that there, it it hard to imagine why you are not doing it throughout the Bible. But if you are not doing it throughout the Bible, then why there only?

    If you wish to begin another thread about raising the dead or the Bible, you are free to do so.
    You are dodging the point.

    A myth is not a "completely false story" nor is this one about a "fake devil". It is called a moral story because it IS a moral story.
    A myth is, at its foundation, a story not rooted in truth. When Matthew wrote his book, he plainly portrayed this as a genuine historical incident. There is no reason to believe otherwise except that some people find the supernatural element difficult to accept and therefore assume it is a myth. Plainly it was not presented that way.

    Until you do, I can't help you any further on this issue. I'm sorry.
    Well, I hadn't asked you for help, but if you want to bow out, then that's fine.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #42

    Dec 8, 2020, 08:28 PM
    For the same reason the Adam and Eve story was told and the Flood story, to tell a bigger truth, a bigger story.
    Kind of like the code in Revelation, the one that no one knows anything about?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #43

    Dec 8, 2020, 08:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Kind of like the code in Revelation?
    That's what our pastor told us after we had been through an exhaustive study of that book.

    You must be a literalist.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #44

    Dec 8, 2020, 08:33 PM
    I take the Bible to be literal unless I have a good reason to do otherwise, which is a very good rule to follow.

    If you did an "exhaustive study" of Revelation, then you should be able to tell us what your evidence is for it being code. So far your only evidence seems to be that your pastor told you that. Sorry, but that is far, far from compelling. Perhaps you mean that you were quite exhausted during the study and cannot remember any of it? 8D

    I would actually consider myself to be an evidentialist.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #45

    Dec 8, 2020, 08:49 PM
    He didn't mention the code idea until we had finished the study (that had included the historical, cultural, etc. settings), threw out that comment at the end of the last class. "Something to think about...."
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #46

    Dec 8, 2020, 08:53 PM
    Well then, I would suggest you think about it, but to simply accept it blindly just strikes me as very strange, and especially when I consider that you have not one ounce of evidence to support it. At least that has now become clear.

    Plainly, you are not an evidentialist.

    Good night. God bless your health.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #47

    Dec 8, 2020, 11:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Well then, I would suggest you think about it, but to simply accept it blindly just strikes me as very strange, and especially when I consider that you have not one ounce of evidence to support it. At least that has now become clear.

    Plainly, you are not an evidentialist.

    Neither are you an "evidentialist". Plausibility being a substitute for evidence as it suits you.

    When you came to this thread I thought you were genuinely seeking knowledge. Now I see that it was your intention to argue. However, I did appreciate your honesty in saying that your position is that whatever you see as the position of the Son of God is what you believe. As I said then, such a position eliminates any need for discussion. A frank admission could have saved time for all concerned.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #48

    Dec 9, 2020, 05:30 AM
    It seems to me you always think that a person coming to a thread has some obligation to agree with you, and if they don't, then they must surely be wrong, and unlike you must surely be there merely to argue. So you have this idea that you are here to "help" me or whoever. While I'm sure you could prove to be helpful, it would also be productive if you would offer a frank admission that there are a number of questions for which you have no answers.

    The plausibility you refer to has a simple explanation. The Bible does not offer any description of how Matthew knew the story of the temptation of Jesus, so there is nothing I know of that would qualify as evidence, or at least as direct evidence. That being the case, we are left to offer plausible scenarios that could explain Matthew knowing the story. That Jesus told him would seem to be the most believable. I am not saying it HAD to have happened that way, but rather that it strikes me as a simple, very believable, and quite likely explanation. I would think it would certainly be better than believing that he just made the whole thing up and then presented it as historical truth, or that he took some measure of truth and embellished it, thus ending up with a myth. Matthew wrote a history of Jesus, included the story, and never hinted that it, or any other passage in his account, should be looked at as mythical. At any rate, there are limits to evidence, so perhaps you need to learn them.

    It's like I said earlier. If you want to bow out and leave, then that is your privilege, but I would think a civil discussion could be productive.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #49

    Dec 9, 2020, 09:46 AM
    JL, the Revelation code is that any reference to "you" in the book is because the book was written to the people of that time, not as warnings to future believers, e.g. us.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #50

    Dec 9, 2020, 11:02 AM
    It was certainly written to the people of that time, but there is no reason to believe it was written ABOUT people of that time. Certainly chapters 2-5 would have made sense to the people at that time, but there is no reason to believe that the rest would have. The prophecies of the succeeding chapters are so extreme that it just makes your statement seem fairly impossible. And besides, Jesus tells John in chapter one this. "19. Therefore write what you have seen, what is, and what will take place after this." I think your theory makes nice conjecture, but I have no idea why a person would feel any compulsion to believe it.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #51

    Dec 9, 2020, 11:15 AM
    It's not my theory. And who/what is 666 and who/what is the Beast?

    Back to the thread's question, if Satan exists, where did he come from, how did he come to be?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #52

    Dec 9, 2020, 12:19 PM
    It's not my theory. And who/what is 666 and who/what is the Beast?
    It's a theory you are promoting. At any rate, I have no idea what 666 is or who the Beast is. I imagine it will all become clear when that time comes.
    if Satan exists, where did he come from, how did he come to be?
    I don't think it really makes any difference. Is. 14 and Ez. 28 probably give some insight to that, but in the end it makes no difference. He is treated like a real being rather clearly, as are the demons. I know of no reason why anyone should believe otherwise.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #53

    Dec 9, 2020, 01:00 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    It's a theory you are promoting.
    Promoting? Offering an alternative possibility is promoting it?
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #54

    Dec 9, 2020, 01:43 PM
    Promoting? Offering an alternative possibility is promoting it?
    I think in the past it's been a good bit stronger than simply, "offering an alternative possibility", but that's fine. Revelation is a difficult book.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #55

    Dec 9, 2020, 01:55 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    It's like I said earlier. If you want to bow out and leave, then that is your privilege, but I would think a civil discussion could be productive.

    You abrogated the possibility of a civil discussion by entering this thread under false pretenses. Before you the discussion was quite civil.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #56

    Dec 9, 2020, 01:58 PM
    I've said nothing that has not been civil. I've had no false pretenses at all. The topic is the existence of Satan and that is what we have discussed. It's all back to how you respond when someone disagrees with you.
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #57

    Dec 9, 2020, 09:55 PM
    Sorry for the delay, Athos. Lotta stuff going on. I'll see if I can answer your questions.

    What did I see that can't be explained? That's difficult to answer. Call it a presence, not seen but sensed, (sort of) felt. Honestly, it's an overall experience that I don't want to repeat, and it's impossible to describe.

    What about other representations of an evil being? Idunno. It seems people all over the world have stories about something. I think the best explanation for that is, there's something out there. Visual depictions can only go so far, and the human imagination can only handle so much.

    Why do It believe in Satan? I see no reason not to. I have since childhood and haven't found any real evidence that The Adversary doesn't exist. If anything, human nature is strong evidence that something royally screwed us up.

    I may have missed one, this thing won't show me the actual post I'm replying to (#27).

    STAY SAFE! WASH YOUR HANDS! WEAR A MASK! NO, NOT THAT KIND OF MASK, IRON MAN WON'T PROTECT YOU FROM COVID - OH, NEVER MIND...
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #58

    Dec 10, 2020, 05:48 AM
    Why do It believe in Satan? I see no reason not to. I have since childhood and haven't found any real evidence that The Adversary doesn't exist. If anything,
    I think you are saying that your personal experience has matched what you've read in the Bible, so you see no reason not to believe. It's the same reason I am thoroughly convinced of the inherent sinfulness of man. What I see in myself and others matches what the Bible says about it.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #59

    Dec 10, 2020, 03:25 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    Sorry for the delay, Athos. Lotta stuff going on. I'll see if I can answer your questions.

    What did I see that can't be explained? That's difficult to answer. Call it a presence, not seen but sensed, (sort of) felt. Honestly, it's an overall experience that I don't want to repeat, and it's impossible to describe.

    What about other representations of an evil being? Idunno. It seems people all over the world have stories about something. I think the best explanation for that is, there's something out there. Visual depictions can only go so far, and the human imagination can only handle so much.

    Why do It believe in Satan? I see no reason not to. I have since childhood and haven't found any real evidence that The Adversary doesn't exist. If anything, human nature is strong evidence that something royally screwed us up.

    I may have missed one, this thing won't show me the actual post I'm replying to (#27).

    STAY SAFE! WASH YOUR HANDS! WEAR A MASK! NO, NOT THAT KIND OF MASK, IRON MAN WON'T PROTECT YOU FROM COVID - OH, NEVER MIND...
    Thanks for your good reply, DW. Since you didn't offer any "proof", and simply stated your belief, you'll get no argument from me. I've made my position on Satan clear so we'll have to agree to disagree.

    I respect the beliefs of others when they don't try to "prove" the belief by endlessly quoting nonsense from this or that book - or series of books. The Bible is a wonderful set of books but it is sadly abused by faulty interpretation such as the bizarre reading that has Jesus condemning to hell for eternal punishment all those who don't believe in him. This is the same Jesus who commanded "Love your enemy". Not to mention the God who creates people only to consign them to hell, knowing this from his perfect knowledge at the moment of their creation.

    The troll, who has reappeared here, is best ignored - that keeps him under his rock.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #60

    Dec 10, 2020, 08:08 PM
    So in a discussion of the existence of Satan, you object to an appeal to the Bible? And you object to my quoting the contention of Jesus that all those who don't believe in Him face eternal judgment? That seems rather strange. But if you don't feel up to it, re-block me. We don't seem to mix well anyway.

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