[InfoJunkie4Life]

1 Corinthians 14:31-33 puts it will enough, I think. Remember In Acts 11 you can see how the temperament of the heart can result in different emotions thought the provocation of the same spiritual prodding.

1 Corinthians 13:9 tells us that prophecy is given in part, "that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away."

Matthew 23:34 Christ himself prophesies the "scourge" and the"blood" of his apostles and prophets yet to come.

[jlisenbe]

Info, if I understood you correctly, I think you are saying that NT prophecy should not be regarded as a definitive message from God in the same sense that the NT itself should be regarded, or that OT prophecies were taken. In other words, NT prophecies are sometimes clouded by the human element. Do I have it right?

[dwashbur]

Athos,
I'll try to chime in tomorrow.

[Athos]

Athos,
I'll try to chime in tomorrow.

Ok, thanks.

[Athos]

Athos,I'll try to chime in tomorrow.

For those of you following the discussion on the nature of Salvation, Dwashbur has chimed in, and here is the link to his answer. It starts around post 8.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/showth...=1#post3857784

[InfoJunkie4Life]

Info, if I understood you correctly, I think you are saying that NT prophecy should not be regarded as a definitive message from God in the same sense that the NT itself should be regarded, or that OT prophecies were taken. In other words, NT prophecies are sometimes clouded by the human element. Do I have it right?

Not really, just that the understanding of prophecy is often limited. We can envision prophecy as a snippet of the future that is probably incredibly difficult to contain within the human mind. Being shown images of the future doesn't necessarily imbue the wisdom intended to be communicated. Often times the prophecies within the scriptures are intended for a future audience, or to give hope of things to come. In many instances prophecy requires the seer and the interpreter to come together. They aren't messages in the sense of directions or even language, but rather a literal representaron of things as they are, however, some time off. It may require prayer or a wiser man than the prophet or even outside knowledge to see the fruits of the vision.

[jlisenbe]

I was following you until this point. "They aren't messages in the sense of directions or even language..."

[dwashbur]

Likewise.

I was following you until this point. "They aren't messages in the sense of directions or even language..."

[InfoJunkie4Life]

I do believe prophecy is truth, probably in the most pure form.

I also believe it is an experience more than hearing or seeing.

Thus, much like the nature of the world, it must be held in the senses of the prophet like a baby seeing for the first time or understanding a word for first time.

By this, we can understand the nature of the interpretation of prophecy:


And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
I Corinthians 14:32 NKJV

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
II Peter 1:20 NKJV

And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 19:10 NKJV

And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord , if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
Deuteronomy 18:21-‬22 NKJV

And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them.
Isaiah 44:7 NKJV

I think it's important to note, that prophecy is defined by truth in Deuteronomy, as coming to be. Any prophecy declared in the name of the Lord must be. The disciples should have understood the prophecy in question as what will be, not as a warning to be avoided. Paul understood this thing.

[jlisenbe]

I also believe it is an experience more than hearing or seeing.

I'd really have to see something in scripture to back that one up in order to agree with it.

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
I Corinthians 14:32 NKJV

His point is not your point. Paul is saying that no prophet can claim he just HAD to speak his prophecy. No, your spirit is subject to you.

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
II Peter 1:20 NKJV

Again, that does not support your contention. He is simply saying that I cannot attach my own private meaning to any prophecy. Prophecy does have specific meaning.

As to the rest of your scriptures, I do not see at all how they back up the idea that prophecy, "...aren't messages in the sense of directions or even language..." They are all contained in language. Prophecy certainly does give us direction frequently. So I'm not just with you on that. I give you great credit for your appeal to scripture.

[InfoJunkie4Life]

I'd really have to see something in scripture to back that one up in order to agree with it.

I like the way Mendy Hecht speaks of prophecy as being "Like the transmission of a high-megawatt signal to a low-wattage instrument"

I'm not saying this is boldly scriptural, however, I can't imagine talking with God is simply mundane. Tounges in Acts 2:13-14 are compared with drunkenness, John on Patmos, in Revelation turns around and beholds 7 lampstands, then heads through a portal into the Spirit. In Daniel 8 he is in a deep sleep and made to stand upright and then becomes sick for several days afterword. Later in chapter 10 Daniel's vigor is turned to frailty, and later his strength restored. In Ezekiel 8 he describes the Spirit lifting him up between heaven and earth by his hair. There are a host of amazing experiences told by the prophets that at least seem unworldly.

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
I Corinthians 14:32 NKJV

His point is not your point. Paul is saying that no prophet can claim he just HAD to speak his prophecy. No, your spirit is subject to you.

For more context:
I Corinthians 14:29-32 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

That last line does speak to your point, that they are in control of their gifts. My point was simply that the interpretation of prophesy is subject to judgement. In Deuteronomy 18 the prophets are known to "speak presumptuously" (at least in theory they are capable) and that their prophecy can be tested. I didn't mean to keep only verse 32 as the proof.

knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
II Peter 1:20 NKJV

He is simply saying that I cannot attach my own private meaning to any prophecy. Prophecy does have specific meaning.

For more context:
2 Peter 1:19-21 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

To your point, this does seem out of context. "Prophetic word confirmed" and "prophecy of Scripture" both imply those prophecies which were in the past and some already completed, some of those which Peter bore witness to. He further explains that these prophecies were written down at the behest of the Holy Spirit (as is attested to by the authors themselves). These are most likely what we refer to as Old Testament prophecies.

In most of these prophecies God ordained that they write that which they saw and then either sealed it, proclaimed God's interpretation (which was recorded), or made for another means of interpretation (which is also recorded).

I do not think this implies different metrics for Paul's modern prophecy, but rather that these past prophecies are the evidences for the Christ that Peter is proclaiming to the Jews, also that these are the true words of God, in contrast with a private interpretation. The need for contrast being to that of modern prophecies that often require interpretation or are to be tested, judged, or otherwise sealed like those of the Old Testament.

They are all contained in language. Prophecy certainly does give us direction frequently. So I'm not just with you on that. I give you great credit for your appeal to scripture.

I think "conveyed to us in language" is more appropriate. The experience by which it is contained is not always so clear.

Kudos to scripture, the inerrant word of God.

As far as I can see, Acts 21 can be reconciled in one of the following 2 ways:

1. There was a supernatural communication through the Holy Spirit from the disciples to Paul, being inspired by man, not having to meet the inerrant standards in question, however facilitated by the Holy Spirit.

2. There was a prophecy shown in Acts 21:4 that was interpreted by the disciples through fear, resulting in concern for Paul. That that vision was made clear in Acts 21:7 where the Holy Spirit declares, through Agabus, the fate of Paul. Then Paul, knowing his own demise, accepts this fate as aligned with the prophecies he already had known.

[jlisenbe]

In Deuteronomy 18 the prophets are known to "speak presumptuously" (at least in theory they are capable) and that their prophecy can be tested.

What did God say must be done to the one who might "speak presumptuously"?

[InfoJunkie4Life]

"he shall die" is what my Bible says.

It seems to me to be a promise, not a commandment.
2 Peter 2:1-3
2 Corinthians 11:15
Revelation 20:10
Jeremiah 14:13-16
Romans 16:17-20

However, a point of contention, the prophecy in question is not in error, rather the fear of the disciples is misplaced. Thus the finality of "let God's will be done" as in giving over to the Spirit, and rejecting the human will for Paul to live.

[dwashbur]

1. There was a supernatural communication through the Holy Spirit from the disciples to Paul, being inspired by man, not having to meet the inerrant standards in question, however facilitated by the Holy Spirit.

I confess I have no idea what that says.

Your second answer, that the disciples were told Paul would suffer and be imprisoned, and they responded in fear and told him not to go, has some possibilities. It's something I've considered but haven't really explored yet.

[jlisenbe]

I confess I have no idea what that says.

Yep. I don't either.

Your second answer, that the disciples were told Paul would suffer and be imprisoned, and they responded in fear and told him not to go, has some possibilities. It's something I've considered but haven't really explored yet.

Yep again.

[InfoJunkie4Life]

"They told Paul through the Spirit" could be a form of communicating supernaturally is all I'm saying.

I'm not convinced of this considering the context, but that is what it sounded like to me upon first reading.

[jlisenbe]

"They told Paul through the Spirit" could be a form of communicating supernaturally is all I'm saying.

Isn't that a given??

[InfoJunkie4Life]

I mean to each other. Like using God as cosmic cell phone, thereby not qualifying as a prophecy.

[dwashbur]

[QUOTEI mean to each other. Like using God as cosmic cell phone, thereby not qualifying as a prophecy.][/QUOTE]

I'm still not following.

[jlisenbe]

I mean to each other. Like using God as cosmic cell phone, thereby not qualifying as a prophecy.

I think that qualifies as speculation. I know of nothing in the Bible that would lead us to that conclusion.