[tomder55]

Clete is that evolution adaption through survival of the fittest ,or God's plan for us ? or maybe Mamma Gaia has a different plan ? When there was almost no human population there were plagues that took out larger percentages of the human population .It had nothing to do with the growth of human population and it has nothing to do with it now .

[talaniman]

Such events still must be dealt with though no matter the causes or where it came from. Some of our leaders have failed us miserably. I ain't naming names but Cuomo looks like the smartest cookie in the jar compared to most of his counterparts so far.

Compare the dufus to oh let's see...Merkel, Trudeau, or anybody else for that matter. He flunks!

[tomder55]

Cuomo looks like the smartest cookie in the jar

except for that nursing home thingy? Don't let his talk fool you . He panicked initially asking the Federal Government for much more PPE .hospital beds etc ,than NY needed by a large factor . Now he is full of himself because the wave that is moving across the country began in the NY area .

[talaniman]

WOW, blame Cuomo for the stupidity of the rest of the country? I don't know Tom, they had plenty of time to see this coming. The west coast is what shocks me more.

[tomder55]

Was the leaders on the west coast stupid too ? No In that case it was people acting in violation of leaders dictates . I don't blame them either . We have been fed a steaming pile of manure from the get go with ridiculous projections that became the basis of public policy . When all is said and done and real data emerges we will find this virus was highly contagious and mortally dangerous to a select vulnerable population . Other than that the mortality rate more or less mirrors the flu .

What we haven't determined yet is the REAL cost to our country for this . We don't know how many other deaths and serious conditions were caused by our myopic focus . We have completely disrupted our economy and clearly our culture . I kinda doubt we will be alive to realize the full effect .

There are those who argue that the virus was the big test about how willing the US is to take the next step to a socialist system .From my perspective we have failed that test miserably and yes in that case I think the President failed too.

.That includes big government intervention that he readily promoted and took credit for . Would you say that the $2,2 trillion bailout package is a conservative initiative ? On top of that the Cares Act creates a cooperative between Treasury and the Fed to decide which American companies and industries are worthy of government bail out .The government deciding winners and losers in the economy is not conservative . It is more like central planning if you ask me . That was not only a Democrat initiative . It was a bipartisan as a bill can get . Trump has followed that up with proposals for other big government initiatives . He uses the guise of infrastructure as a pretext . Talks are already underway for another relief package in the hundreds of billions of dollars. Trump's signature will be on that one too,

[talaniman]

I guess to be fair, behavior has as much to do with success and failure as policy does, which is why California surprised me and Texas doesn't. So the people share the blame for stupidity except where the state leadership showed utter stupidity. The countries that shut down and hunkered down brought the curve to zero and we did none of that. Our dufus leader was more concerned with opening up than dealing with the virus, so I guess I go with screw the economy while this virus is raging out of control crowd. I mean how do you have a healthy economy with a country full of sick people? 50,000 new cases A DAY? Come on man! You can be well going to work, and sick that night!

And who bears the brunt of the reopening and the getting sick? Blue collar lower wage workers. I can see where the attitude is make them lazy poor people work during the pandemic and replace 'em if they get sick. They're just throwaway workers any way, not like the important white collar crowd who can work from home and get paid, with a big old room for every occupant.

I gotcha Tom, it's all a big HOAX to make the dufus look bad.

[paraclete]

!


I gotcha Tom, it's all a big HOAX to make the dufus look bad.

well of course it is he needs all the help he can get, he wasn't looking bad enough on his own

[tomder55]

. The countries that shut down and hunkered down brought the curve to zero and we did none of that.

It is very clear that was and still is needed is regional responses .States like South Dakota never issued restrictions or had few restrictions that have been lifted . They are doing fine . They did not need the same response that high density states like NY had . Even here in NY different regions required different responses . And why would California surprise you ? There are still many freedom loving people living there . Too bad they have been duped into believing the progressive cr@p sandwich that they are fed there . There is logic in closing indoor bars where distancing is almost impossible. Closing the beaches this weekend is just cruel abuse of power. Here is a good prudent national response at this time . End that silly $600 incentive not to work . Time for America to start working again.

and since I added Trump to people I called out then the obvious conclusion is no I don't think it was a hoax. What Trump needs to do more than anything else is the squeeze the Chi-coms into letting independent investigators into the country to determine the real source of the virus . This covid strain is unnatural . And the modelling was completely off . It should be a lesson to you 'trust and believe the scientist 'types . You have seen enough proof of things they have gotten wrong with their virus modelling and recommendations to never again make the assumptions that they are a all that . Keep that in mind the next time climate is brought up .

[talaniman]

I won't get into crap sandwiches right or left, but there is merit to the idea of regional responses, as the spread is often locally driven. The lesson of NY in my view was that as infections and hospitalization increased the human activity was decreased, and that seems to be as effective a strategy looking back as I've seen. With the south and west spreads, that's not what they are doing at all so find themselves having to scale back there human activity. California, hit hard seemed to be following that same NY model, but got off that track for whatever reason. I don't know what freedom loving people have to do with it, other than a propaganda value changing the narrative from health to economic, which seems to justify that tired old meme that any extra dollar a poor low wage worker gets makes him lazy, when in reality it helps through a catastrophic virus epidemic. Temporary assistance, much like the rich guy tax breaks during good economic times, is essential for us blue collar types or he go hungry or hopeless. Talk about a right wing crap sandwiches!

What we fail to factor in is that lag time for human activity which runs from 7 days to 21 days, and waiting for the cause and effect to be felt, only gives us a rear view of what really works and what doesn't. By that time the damage has been done and the scramble begins. I think Tom, you have always been in the conservative capitalists crowd of profits before people so you bias against those "essential", but low wage workers makes them just expendable economic cannon fodder to get another dollar out of. I can see why you and the dufus would break with the discipline of science to deal with any economic challenge to that profit model.

Clearly we see, not just during this pandemic, but in other human activity as well, we can live with whatever adverse effects to humans that activity brings as long as the profit targets are reached. In this Tom over the years you have been consistent.

[tomder55]

show me where being able bodied and out of work benefitted anyone . I came from the ranks of the 'low wage workers '.I know I still would be if it was my attitude that I'd rather take $600 "free" money than working when work was available . Even when unemployment was available to me I did not pursue it . I went out and found a job. I knew it was not going to be my final job. So your premise about me is wrong . This I know and it fits every single economic model . No one is hiring to provide charity . The work you produce has to bring more profit in than your cost to the company . So yeah , I tend to agree with the job creators positions more than those that think the job creator is an evil .

And you also know that I have a low opinion of corporate rent seekers even as I mostly disagree with the general idea of taxing corporate income . As you saw in my comments already i opposed most of the bailout package .... and most of it was to the benefit of corporations . So you have another wrong premise about me . Socialism is socialism and that manifest itself by government control of the means of production and the economy . And government playing favorites with one company or business or industry over another is as socialist as it gets .

[talaniman]

It's a pandemic going around and it affects ones ability to work, and even find work. You cannot ignore that condition, and the effects it has on workers or the uncertainty it causes us all. For to long we have ignored that fact of the business cycle going up and down on those that cannot prepare, or have no buffer to ride those cycles out. Natural disaster come and go quickly, but that's not what we have now, and the capitalist system is as helpless as any of us in dealing with it. No you just cannot ignore these current conditions and fall back on the normal ideologies and marketing ploys that have worked for some for so long.

My friend, in keeping with my liberal bonafides (As you keep your conservative bonafides LOL!), I must remind you no economy will work with sick workers and we must push for solutions that protect those workers who through no fault of their own are facing this virus challenge with no tools at all. 600 bucks a week extra for a few months when they cannot work seems rather paltry when there are no other choices for those able bodied who want to work. They didn't just go home and start begging for free stuff. They were told to go home, because of a HEALTH crisis, and it's getting WORSE not better.

You cannot ignore that no matter what your politics or religion is can you?

[tomder55]

600 bucks a week extra for a few months when they cannot work seems rather paltry when there are no other choices for those able bodied who want to work

that is true and since they were not working because of government mandate then there is logic in it . But now the work is available and the unemployment check is a disincentive to rejoin the labor force. As a worker it makes sense to me . If the government is going to cut me a check to take a summer break who am I to say no ? I'd much rather hang at the beach or 'peacefully protest 'in the streets tearing down statues than wake up to an alarm clock and have to punch in . But now most places of business are up and running . Time to get back to work

[talaniman]

That totally ignores the facts on the ground as sickness and death is running rampant in large parts of the country. You weathered your NY storm and maybe it is time for NY to get back to work, but that ain't happening everywhere. You can't ignore that.

We sure can't in Texas, or a bunch of other places in the country either.

[tomder55]

can't avoid it . I have said all along the virus is going to run it's course . The delay is hoping to wait it out until a vaccine is proven effective . How long you willing to wait ? I know people who can't even get court dates because of the shutdowns . This is part of the reason for the crime spike throughout the country . Sandinista Bill released all these criminals from Ryker's Island to roam and marauder in the streets . Then on top of that he is attempting to neuter the police force . It stuns me that they have the resources to address a gym owner who wants to open up for business but play catch and release with hardened criminals .

[talaniman]

Oh come on Tom, we can go back and forth about politics and governing and have for a long time, but this is about the virus, and dealing with it. You have to admit it's caught us flatfooted and exposed all our weaknesses and flaws that all the patriotic partisan bluster can't gloss over. Yeah, maybe us liberals will bankrupt us, and conservatives will keep us sick and make us sicker. You want us to just ignore the sickness, and get paid, and I want us to ignore the money and help us get through the sickness.

Maybe we're both wrong, or maybe we're both right, as obviously we have to figure out what the right balance is to do both, fight the virus, and not bankrupt the country, so the economy can't recover...eventually. For sure we aren't even close now. I think you hit it right when you said the virus will run it's course no matter what we do. LOL, that means a lot of sick people sitting home recovering and can't pay the bills. We're talking hundreds of millions. Too bad for them huh, and the companies they work for who may never reopen again.

That's not business as usual is it?

[paraclete]

the curve you need to flatten is the upward curve in infections, all the rest will be as nothing unless you achieve that. Yes, people are suffering, people who have not suffered pandemic and depression before, and fear rules the land. No amount of rhetoric will have any effect, no amount of wishfull thinking will have any effect, and B/S political rallies will have the opposite effect. This is a time for leadership not B/S

[talaniman]

Well that leaves the US out because we have no leadership, just 50 yahoos, trying stuff.

[tomder55]

Good luck trying to get rid of the Federal system and good luck living with the dictates of bureaucrats 1,300 miles away from where you live .Most of whom have never seen your part of the country nor care to do so.
"a single courageous State may, if its citizens choose, serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country." (NY Ice Company v Lieberman )
You guys have no problem with Federalism when it comes to challenging immigration law or national marijuana laws . Not having standardization is a good thing .

[talaniman]

I guess walls, fences, and checkpoints, are in order between the states during a pandemic. Sort of takes UNITED out of United States huh.

[paraclete]

I guess walls, fences, and checkpoints, are in order between the states during a pandemic. Sort of takes UNITED out of United States huh.

Bite the bullet, shut the borders