Ask Experts Questions for FREE Help !
Ask
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #41

    Sep 19, 2020, 07:02 PM
    Well, why wouldn't I believe that? He stated above that the Shinto religion was evidence sufficient to support his previously stated theory. Wouldn't that suggest that he believes it? And he has repeatedly cast doubt on the accuracy of the Bible, so why wouldn't I draw the conclusion that he holds the Shinto religion in higher regard than the Bible? Go back and read my comments in post 19 (which have not yet been replied to) to see his view of the Bible, especially the part about him trying to suggest the Bible is "invaluable" in understanding Christianity just after telling you that no book in the world can judge your views. What do you think?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
    Jobs & Parenting Expert
     
    #42

    Sep 19, 2020, 07:14 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Well, why wouldn't I believe that? He stated above that the Shinto religion was evidence sufficient to support his previously stated theory. Wouldn't that suggest that he believes it?
    No. And I said a lot of Shinto has interesting parallels to Christianity. Does that mean I'm a Shinto believer?

    And he has repeatedly cast doubt on the accuracy of the Bible
    No, he hasn't.
    especially the part about him trying to suggest the Bible is "invaluable" in understanding Christianity just after telling you that no book in the world can judge your views. What do you think?
    Understanding and judging are two different things.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #43

    Sep 19, 2020, 07:20 PM
    So you are genuinely asking me to believe that a man would present the Shinto religion as evidence supporting a position when all the while he doesn't believe it? That's pretty preposterous.

    Understanding and judging are two different things.
    So now you're suggesting that the Bible can be invaluable in helping me understand Christianity, but then it can't be used to correct (judge) what I believe? Come on. You're being silly.

    No, he hasn't.
    Really? Then how would you characterize this?
    Subjective - based on opinion, belief, emotions personal judgement.
    Objective - based on analysis, fact-based, measurable and observable.

    Scripture, Christianity and other like systems, are clearly subjective.

    To answer your question of how can we have an objective argument concerning the nature of Christianity, we can't
    So if scripture is based on opinion, belief, emotions, and personal judgment, in what possible manner can it be considered accurate and authoritative? Come on, WG. You're smarter than that. I know it's your reflexive approach to automatically disagree with any POV that might appear conservative, but that is leading you into ever higher weeds here.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
    Jobs & Parenting Expert
     
    #44

    Sep 19, 2020, 07:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So you are genuinely asking me to believe that a man would present the Shinto religion as evidence supporting a position when all the while he doesn't believe it? That's pretty preposterous.
    Yep! Believe it, O ye of little faith!

    So now you're suggesting that the Bible can be invaluable in helping me understand Christianity, but then it can't be used to correct (judge) what I believe? Come on. You're being silly.
    Always, always the putdown. I'm really getting used to them and would miss them if you didn't add them any longer.
    Really? Then how would you characterize this?
    So scripture is based on opinion, belief, emotions, and personal judgment, in what possible manner can it be considered accurate and authoritative?
    You and I don't understand the Bible in the same way. So who's right?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #45

    Sep 19, 2020, 07:33 PM
    Yep! Believe it, O ye of little faith!
    I would have to be stupid to believe that since it's plainly contradictory. It is not a matter of faith at all but simple logic. "Your honor, I would like to present this as evidence to support my case." "OK, but WG, do you believe your evidence is true." "No sir, I don't believe it is true." How far do you think that would take you? Come on.

    Always, always the putdown.
    As is oftentimes the case, no answer.

    You and I don't understand the Bible in the same way. So who's right?
    And again, no real answer.

    I don't want to discuss this with you. No offense intended, but you're too evasive and frequently unwilling to engage in meaningful discussion. I'm out until that changes.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
    Jobs & Parenting Expert
     
    #46

    Sep 19, 2020, 07:41 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So you are genuinely asking me to believe that a man would present the Shinto religion as evidence supporting a position when all the while he doesn't believe it? That's pretty preposterous.
    He has given no reason for us to think he's an adherent of the Shinto religion. And if he is, so what???
    So now you're suggesting that the Bible can be invaluable in helping me understand Christianity, but then it can't be used to correct (judge) what I believe? Come on. You're being silly.
    Understand Christianity -- but not if you read only the Bible. The judging comes from inside you.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #47

    Sep 20, 2020, 05:34 AM
    I'll take one more stab at it.
    The judging comes from inside you.
    How would that not take us to a place where everyone gets to have their own, personal version of Christianity? You might say Jesus lived a sinless life while I might say he had an affair with Mary Magdalene. There would be no way to establish truth if the judging comes from the inside.

    There has to be an authoritative source of truth where we understand that no matter how I feel on the inside, this is what is true. If there is not, then we have nothing to proclaim other than personal opinion, and that would be completely worthless. There is room for disagreement on the peripherals, but on the core truths of the faith there is no place for "inner judging". Different translations of the Bible have no impact here. Personal tastes matter none at all. Political ideologies carry no weight. Conservative/liberal have nothing to add. The only concern is, "It is written".
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #48

    Sep 20, 2020, 07:21 AM
    Subjective - based on opinion, belief, emotions personal judgement.
    Objective - based on analysis, fact-based, measurable and observable.

    Scripture, Christianity and other like systems, are clearly subjective.

    To answer your question of how can we have an objective argument concerning the nature of Christianity, we can't.
    We are being asked to accept, as objective truth, that the Bible itself is not objective truth. Why is that so? Because, insofar as can be seen from the quoted passage, Athos says so. That strikes me as asking a lot. The Bible, having weathered the storms of criticism for centuries, must be rejected as merely subjective, but the statement of Athos, on the basis of no evidence at all, should be considered objective?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
    Jobs & Parenting Expert
     
    #49

    Sep 20, 2020, 10:32 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    How would that not take us to a place where everyone gets to have their own, personal version of Christianity? You might say Jesus lived a sinless life while I might say he had an affair with Mary Magdalene. There would be no way to establish truth if the judging comes from the inside.
    In order to establish truth, one does not depend on one source, or, in your example, one person. In order to find the truth, dig into a multiplicity of sources (e.g., concordances, earlier texts) and their discussions about a topic. The "judging" as you call it would occur after all source material has been examined.

    from Merriam-Webster:
    Definition of judge (Entry 2 of 2)
    transitive verb
    1: to form an opinion about through careful weighing of evidence and testing of premises

    There has to be an authoritative source of truth where we understand that no matter how I feel on the inside, this is what is true. If there is not, then we have nothing to proclaim other than personal opinion, and that would be completely worthless. There is room for disagreement on the peripherals, but on the core truths of the faith there is no place for "inner judging". Different translations of the Bible have no impact here. Personal tastes matter none at all. Political ideologies carry no weight. Conservative/liberal have nothing to add. The only concern is, "It is written".
    So Bible research is worthless? We must accept what is written? (in the RSV? the Vulgate? the NIV?)
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #50

    Sep 20, 2020, 11:35 AM
    So Bible research is worthless? We must accept what is written? (in the RSV? the Vulgate? the NIV?)
    Give me an example of how any major doctrine is affected by which generally accepted translation is used.

    In order to find the truth, dig into a multiplicity of sources (e.g., concordances, earlier texts) and their discussions about a topic. The "judging" as you call it would occur after all source material has been examined.
    Fine. Look in the concordance all you want, or in whatever earlier text you want. Give me an example of how using a concordance changes any major Christian doctrine, or how looking into an earlier text of scripture changes one.

    If by "judging" you mean to draw a conclusion based upon careful examination of the Bible, then we can have a discussion, but that completely blows away any silly contention that no book on the earth has the authority to judge your inward beliefs, or how a request to support a belief by scripture is a "fool's errand".

    I do appreciate the serious approach. It is refreshing.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
    Ultra Member
     
    #51

    Sep 20, 2020, 12:15 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    We are being asked to accept, as objective truth, that the Bible itself is not objective truth. Why is that so? Because, insofar as can be seen from the quoted passage, Athos says so. That strikes me as asking a lot. The Bible, having weathered the storms of criticism for centuries, must be rejected as merely subjective, but the statement of Athos, on the basis of no evidence at all, should be considered objective?
    Being advised my name was mentioned here, I'm jumping in.

    Based on infojunkie's challenge of objective v subjective truth, the Bible is clearly subjective. It DEFINES subjective. As I undserstand Jlisenbe's objection, it consists in his statement, "It is written".

    Not to put words in J 's mouth, I presume he means written by God. That belief is fine and held by millions, but it is NOT objective truth. IT is a belief which is the defining basis of subjectivity. There is not a single proof of the claim being objectively true. I welcome any proof from anyone. Let me head you off at the pass - a statement that the Bible is true BECAUSE the Bible says it is true, is NOT proof. I hope I don't have to explain that to anyone.

    As far as my "belief" in Shinto, WG has answered that sufficiently. I'm surprised that jlisenbe understood that so badly as to make his claim about Shinto.

    Finally, I see that Jlisenbe has yet to reply to my long answer to a post of his that he says I haven't yet replied to. I replied several hours ago (in fact, yesterday) and it is Jlisenbe who has refused to reply. To be crystal clear, I even titled it "Reply to Jlisenbe".
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #52

    Sep 20, 2020, 12:31 PM
    As far as my "belief" in Shinto, WG has answered that sufficiently. I'm surprised that jlisenbe understood that so badly as to make his claim about Shinto.
    You plainly stated that the Shinto religion was "evidence" in your beliefs about man. Now perhaps you are going to tell us that you have no belief in your own evidence. That strikes me as foolish beyond belief, but then it's not my statement to defend. Perhaps you can explain why any person would present as evidence materiel he doesn't believe to be true.

    Finally, I see that Jlisenbe has yet to reply to my long answer to a post of his that he says I haven't yet replied to. I replied several hours ago (in fact, yesterday) and it is Jlisenbe who has refused to reply. To be crystal clear, I even titled it "Reply to Jlisenbe".
    Which post are you referring to? I checked your posts from yesterday and couldn't see one that I did not respond to. If you are referring to post 34, you find my reply in 35. I don't see a reply by you to 19 and 20, but perhaps you can point me to it.

    As to whether or not the Bible is God's word, I will respond to that later today or tomorrow. It is a great question. In fact, I would say it is THE question.

    Being advised my name was mentioned here,
    That's so funny. Who's your spy? I have a suspect in mind! Still, if I have a name, I can always tell that person to pass you a message. Do you use telegraph? 8D
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
    Ultra Member
     
    #53

    Sep 20, 2020, 01:01 PM
    These are so easy, I'm replying quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You plainly stated that the Shinto religion was "evidence" in your beliefs about man.
    Yes. It is evidence that man has attributed supernatural/spiritual powers to natural objects. I'm dumbfounded how you can take that to mean I believe in Shinto. Honestly, it makes me wonder about your ability to understand the simplest of concepts.

    Now perhaps you are going to tell us that you have no belief in your own evidence. That strikes me as foolish beyond belief, but then it's not my statement to defend. Perhaps you can explain why any person would present as evidence materiel he doesn't believe to be true.
    I have explained it in my first reply above. You're embarrassing yourself. I take no pleasure in that.

    Which post are you referring to? I checked your posts from yesterday and couldn't see one that I did not respond to. If you are referring to post 34, you find my reply in 35. I don't see a reply by you to 19 and 20, but perhaps you can point me to it.
    I don't know how to make it any clearer. There is a topic called "Religious Discussions" which is where we are right now. The thread is "The Nature Of Salvation". Immediately below that thread is one entitled "Reply Requested by Jlisenbe". That's the reply to you I referred to and which you haven't answered. I don't know haw to make it any plainer. This is the third time I've shown it to you. To give you the benefit of the doubt, I suppose it's possible your computer has a glitch, but I don't think so. Maybe someone else can confirm its existence.

    As to whether or not the Bible is God's word, I will respond to that later today or tomorrow. It is a great question. In fact, I would say it is THE question.
    ok

    That's so funny. Who's your spy? I have a suspect in mind! Still, if I have a name, I can always tell that person to pass you a message. Do you use telegraph? 8D
    I sometimes receive notifications from non-members or non-posters. My guess is they are people who are interested in the truth.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #54

    Sep 20, 2020, 01:17 PM
    Yes. It is evidence that man has attributed supernatural/spiritual powers to natural objects. I'm dumbfounded how you can take that to mean I believe in Shinto. Honestly, it makes me wonder about your ability to understand the simplest of concepts.
    Well...that makes a lot of sense. Shinto is my evidence, but I don't believe it is true. OK then. Gotcha.

    As to the rest, you started a new thread and just believe that I'm supposed to see it. OK. I'll recopy it here since that's where it belongs. My question was posted here and should have been answered here. I would think that would be fairly obvious, but that's OK. I'll take care of it.

    I sometimes receive notifications from non-members or non-posters. My guess is they are people who are interested in the truth.
    So they don't think they can handle replies themselves? Strange.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #55

    Sep 20, 2020, 01:34 PM
    GENERAL


    The basic issue is the proper way to approach the Bible. One claim is that the Bible is to be taken at face value since it is “the word of God”. Another says the proper approach is to first use one's mental abilities to make any determination about the Bible – or anything else for that matter. That is an essential part of anyone's thought process. Before accepting the book as the word of God, a person first thinks and considers the matter. That should be apparent to anyone.
    The next step is to determine what one thinks about the matter in question – in this case, the Bible. The process of discernment includes considering the idea with one's conscience. Jlisenbe, like anyone, goes through this process and determines the Bible is the word of God. That is his right and his right is not in dispute.
    Others, also considering the matter through the lens of their conscience as all must do, arrive at a somewhat different conclusion – that the Bible is a good book, and is useful for following the path of Christianity, but it is not the literal “word of God”.
    One cannot exclude consulting the conscience – the mind does it automatically.
    The process of discernment concerns considering the idea with your mind and processes of reasoning.

    When you speak the simple truth about God, which you have done above, no book in the world is able to second guess you. To be challenged to defend your position by “quoting Scripture” is a fool's errand.


    Jlisenbe's reply:

    A simple example of a person elevating their own personal opinion above the Bible. It is equivalent to saying that the Bible is correct insofar as it agrees with me. So a person can say, "Like Jesus said to Mary, 'You have chosen the better part,'" and consider it be accurate because it agrees with his/her preconceived notions. But when the same Jesus said, " if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins," then that cannot be allowed since, after all, it does not agree with what that person has already concluded to be true. So Athos is basically saying that WG is right in her view since she agrees with his view. Stunning.

    Please read carefully. Here is what you are confusing. You are saying: If one accepts one part of the Bible as correct, one must therefore accept all of the Bible as correct. That's not true with the Bible, nor is it true with any book. That's why we deliberate using our mental processes to understand. To discern. Evaluate. Examine. Test. In no sense does it mean I “elevate” my opinion above the Bible.
    Thank you for not answering the question. You wrote that no book on the earth can second guess WG's religious opinion. That is elevating her opinion, and by necessary extension everyone's opinions, above that of the Bible. You have not explained why that would not be true.


    This is not to say the Bible is not a good book. I would never say that. It is invaluable in learning about Christianity and the man of the Gospels Jesus Christ.


    Jlisenbe's reply:

    This statement cannot be reconciled with the statement above.
    Of course it can. As previously explained. A book can be good and invaluable and still require discernment.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Jlisenbe wrote:

    If it is invaluable in learning about Christianity, then why wouldn't we believe what it says?

    My reply:

    We believe much of what it says, even most. Again, not every jot and tittle. You are confusing invaluable with infallible.
    You are trying to straddle the fence. You consider the Bible to be true as long as it agrees with you. You say it's invaluable for understanding the Christian faith, but then you will not accept what it says about the Christian faith. So when Jesus says that if we do not believe in Him we will die in our sins, that bothers you so you just toss it out. You elevate your own opinions above what the Bible says.
    From Jlisenbe:

    The problem is this. If I claim to be speaking the "simple truth" about God, then I have to ask where this simple truth came from.

    My reply:

    That's already been answered. The source is a person's discernment process – mind and conscience or “God's little gene” as nicely phrased by Dwashbur.
    And again, you elevate your mind/conscience, above that of the Bible. That's the very simple difference we have.

    Jlisenbe wrote:

    If it came from somewhere in me, then what authority can I claim to have?

    My reply:

    It's not a question of authority- never has been. I think this is where you are going off the rails. You need “authority” to tell you what to believe. What if that authority is wrong? Or, heaven forbid, evil? How do you determine that?
    Of course it's about authority. How we determine that is the very core of the question. You believe yourself. I believe the Bible.


    Jlisenbe wrote:

    People all around the world have various ideas about God which they consider to be the simple truth. Some of them will kill you in defense of that truth.

    My reply:

    That's true of Christians more than any other religion. What do we make of that? Does that mean the Bible is evil?
    Yeah. We know that's true from how the Christians attacked America on 9/11. But even if your silly claim was true, it makes no difference. As long as those violent Christians were acting on their conscience, how can you say they are wrong? Once again, you did not answer the question.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________


    Jlisenbe wrote:

    Who's to say they are wrong if all of this is nothing more than a contest of opinions arrived at by what we contend is the voice of our conscience?

    My reply:

    In terms of Christianity, what you have said – a contest of opinions – is very close to the truth. At last count, Christianity has hundreds, (maybe thousands), of versions some of which have major theological differences. You ask, “Who's to say they are wrong”? Who, indeed? You?

    Once again you do not answer the question. Is there anything to appeal to above the collective voices of billions of consciences?


    Jlisenbe wrote:

    The truth always comes out sooner or later. Here it is, sadly I think, for Athos. "...no book in the world is able to second guess you." There would seem to be no other way to take that than to conclude that he considers his views to be king over the Bible.

    My reply:

    You may take it the way I intended it to be taken and which I described at length here in this reply.
    No answer so no reply.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________


    Jlisenbe wrote:

    Perhaps he merely crafted his beliefs inartfully which led to wrong conclusions. I am certainly open to correction in this regard.

    My reply:

    Are you really? Open to correction? That's good because I hope you will consider the errors I have pointed out in your post.
    If you had, I would.



    As previously stated here, I do not see Jlisenbe's posts. However, I will make an exception if he replies. If the reply requires a response, I will do so.
    How noble of you.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #56

    Sep 20, 2020, 01:39 PM
    Perhaps there is a way to boil this down to a simple question. If a person says their conscience tells them it's OK to kill an innocent person, and they live in a country where most people agree with them, would you say they are wrong? If so, why?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
    Jobs & Parenting Expert
     
    #57

    Sep 20, 2020, 03:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Perhaps there is a way to boil this down to a simple question. If a person says their conscience tells them it's OK to kill an innocent person, and they live in a country where most people agree with them, would you say they are wrong? If so, why?
    That's boiling this down to a simple question??? I smell a setup simmering.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #58

    Sep 20, 2020, 05:27 PM
    Does that mean there is another non-answer/evasive answer coming? You have been doing better!! Don’t backslide.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
    Jobs & Parenting Expert
     
    #59

    Sep 20, 2020, 06:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Does that mean there is another non-answer/evasive answer coming? You have been doing better!! Don’t backslide.
    I was watching Adult Swim with my son as we were eating huge sweet cherries from Washington State.

    If a person says their conscience tells them it's OK to kill innocent enemy soldiers in a war, and they live in a country where most people agree with them, would you say they are wrong? If so, why?

    I think war can sometimes be avoided, but aren't soldiers, no matter whose side they'e on, innocent? It's the warring leaders who should duke it out.

    And how many innocent people, especially POC, have been legally executed? Or killed by police?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #60

    Sep 20, 2020, 06:40 PM
    Evasion returneth.

Not your question? Ask your question View similar questions

 

Question Tools Search this Question
Search this Question:

Advanced Search

Add your answer here.


Check out some similar questions!

Salvation? [ 51 Answers ]

what if person sin again after being saved?

Can you lose your salvation? [ 492 Answers ]

As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved" or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation? Very interested to get your feedback.:D

Is salvation earned? [ 28 Answers ]

I was once told via an indirect, that there were Christians who expected to be saved by riding on the backs of those who heeded Jesus' instructions to preach the Gospel. I have also observed many Christians literally breaking their necks to be in good standing with God by preaching, looking down on...


View more questions Search