[jlisenbe]

That was what my Christian experience was about and still is, though I am not one.

That has to be the strangest statement I have read in a long time. You have a "Christian experience", and yet you are not a Christian? Hmmm.

[talaniman]

Why is it so strange that someone interacts with fellow humans on many levels and always has? I can say the same about my experience with Islam, Hindi's, gays, Hispanics, and a host of others. I don't care about religious affiliations.

Just in my own family we have many diverse religious backgrounds and sects breaking bread and passing BBQ. or is it strange I'm such an engaging fellow? 8D

PS

You're still a self righteous b@stard sometimes, and is it name calling if it's true! You know I'm right.

[jlisenbe]

To say that you interact with people of other faiths is fine. When you speak of, "My Christian experience," it certainly sounds like you have a personal one of your own. But you have cleared that up, so I get you now. I do my best even though I am, in your words, a "self righteous b@stard". I can absolutely assure you that self-righteousness is not a trait I hold onto.

[talaniman]

Today is a good day not to be a self righteous b@stard, or a GROUCH.

[jlisenbe]

Then I would suggest you stop being both. You know...name calling, insults, etc.

[Wondergirl]

This is what I find to be very interesting in your comments about infant baptism. You have belittled and even mocked the use of proof texts, calling them "Bible Bingo". You did, of course, until you thought the practice might be useful in this case, and you have attempted to bring forward proof texts to perhaps establish your point.

Nope. You demanded I supply proof passages because YOU wanted to play Bible Bingo. I sighed mightily, considered dragging out my Bible Scrabble board, but then sighed mightily again and gave in (just like a submissive woman, hmm) to your request. You claim your Bible passages are better than mine. Yup! -- I KNEW that would happen! And that's because you and I don't agree from the get-go on various Christian teachings. I really wish you and I could have a civil discussion. Apparently, it won't happen in this life. *sigh*

[Wondergirl]

I am still surprised that you linked to a Catholic website to defend your Lutheran beliefs. Luther would be appalled.

Luther had been a Catholic monk and had great respect for much of that church and its members, but disagreed with various teachings (and selling forgiveness of sins so a cathedral could be built).

For many years, my Catholic, Baptist, and agnostic/atheist neighbors and I had a weekly Bible study. Best learning experience in my life!

[Wondergirl]

It makes me sad that you have so little understanding of the Bible. You place your own emotional beliefs above Scripture. Truthfully, you are saying, if I understand you correctly, that you have never personally repented. You have never personally put your faith in Christ and made a personal, individual decision to trust and follow Him. You have never made a personal decision to "Look unto (God) and be saved, all ye ends of the earth," as Spurgeon and untold millions of others have done. You have placed your faith, not in what God says, but in what some people said when you were three weeks old. All of that worries me about you. And with a Bible sitting in front of you, you can make no excuses. I would encourage you to toss aside what other people have told you and read it for yourself. There is much at stake.

What an unChristian, even unloving thing to say! And no, you don't understand me correctly AT ALL! I'm so glad God is my judge (and not you).

[jlisenbe]

if I understand you correctly

Feel free to set the record straight. I could very well be wrong. I'm just going on what you have stated. But if I don't understand you correctly, then correct me. I am happy to listen. I did not say that with any malice in mind. However, you do seriously concern me. If you want me to mind my own business, then just say so. I'm just reacting to your profession that you somehow became a Christian at the age of three weeks on the basis of what other people said about you. You did not repent, ask for forgiveness, or profess a faith in Christ, but you say others did that for you. I think you will search the Bible in vain to find evidence for that.

You guys are pretty sensitive. I suppose I say things in a way that would not bother me to hear. The people I discuss issues with in the real world are about as blunt and honest as I am. I'm not accustomed to this level of sensitivity, and I'm not real sure how to say things in a way that does not offend you, but my apologies if it somehow came across that way. Still, I will continue to encourage you to read the Bible for yourself.

[jlisenbe]

Nope. You demanded I supply proof passages because YOU wanted to play Bible Bingo. I sighed mightily, considered dragging out my Bible Scrabble board, but then sighed mightily again and gave in (just like a submissive woman, hmm) to your request. You claim your Bible passages are better than mine. Yup! -- I KNEW that would happen! And that's because you and I don't agree from the get-go on various Christian teachings. I really wish you and I could have a civil discussion. Apparently, it won't happen in this life. *sigh*

I've demanded nothing from you.

I haven't claimed my passages are better than yours. I've claimed you have no passages that support your position.

I don't think I'm being uncivil. I think I'm asking questions that make you uncomfortable.

[Wondergirl]

You guys are pretty sensitive. I suppose I say things in a way that would not bother me to hear. The people I discuss issues with in the real world are about as blunt and honest as I am. I'm not accustomed to this level of sensitivity, and I'm not real sure how to say things in a way that does not offend you, but my apologies if it somehow came across that way.

Blunt/honest is one thing. Derogatory and shaming comments create sensitivity and cause the recipient to find more uplifting things to do with his/her time.

How to say things in a non-offensive way? Ask honest, thought- and discussion-provoking questions -- "Have you ever been involved in family devotions? If so, what materials were used?" or "Why is God so vicious and violent in the OT, yet Jesus is so loving in the NT?" or "Does God have a plan for our lives? If so, how can we know what it is?"

[jlisenbe]

You ask your questions. I'll ask mine.

But here's one. Was Jesus loving when He made a whip and drove people out of the Temple, or was He loving when he dressed down the Pharisees, or was He loving when He engaged in His "Woe unto you" criticism of the Jewish religious leaders? Was God vicious and violent when He delivered the children of Israel from slavery in Egypt, or when He delivered Rahab, a prostitue, and her entire family from destruction in Jericho, or when He patiently tolerated Israel's blatant disobedience for centuries?

I'm disappointed you did not correct what you said were my misconceptions about you. You complained loudly, but then passed up an opportunity for clarity.

[Wondergirl]

I'm disappointed you did not correct what you said were my misconceptions about you. You complained loudly, but then passed up an opportunity for clarity.

Why are you so eager to learn about my life as a Christian? Past experience tells me I will only get slammed by you if I post anything more about it.

[jlisenbe]

I'm not eager. You claimed I had it wrong, so I thought you might want to correct me. As for me, I love telling people about my life as a Christian. It's my favorite thing to do and I am always willing.

[talaniman]

If only you were so eager to apply and share that great experience in a way other than blunt disgusting, honest though you think it is. May I remind you that YOU told us to call you on it when you act like an overbearing bully? Just doing as you asked. The name calling was my personal touch as true as the facts you claim as truth.

Before you say it..."takes one to know one", but you admit your flaws even if you keep doing it. I don't know if that's such a great example of salvation, but what would I know, except I recognize callous disrespect and don't like it.

[jlisenbe]

If only you were so eager to apply and share that great experience in a way other than blunt disgusting, honest though you think it is. May I remind you that YOU told us to call you on it when you act like an overbearing bully? Just doing as you asked. The name calling was my personal touch as true as the facts you claim as truth.

Show me where I have done that. Be specific. Seriously. If I am going in that direction, I want to know. Now just a broad, general accusation won't get me anywhere.

Before you say it..."takes one to know one", but you admit your flaws even if you keep doing it. I don't know if that's such a great example of salvation, but what would I know, except I recognize callous disrespect and don't like it.

I'm perfectly willing to admit to flaws. Now for a guy who has done the name calling you've done, and made the disgusting comments you have made, to fuss about me is pretty much a stretch. But like I said, be specific about how I have been an "overbearing bully" or "blunt disgusting". You might also want to discuss the need for all of us, including you, to be a good example.

[talaniman]

Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Oh stop whining. It really, really gets tiresome. This is a discussion between adults. I believe you are completely able to defend your positions, and so I ask questions to clarify your thinking. I'm not going to treat you like a weak, silly female.

This is but ONE of many.

[Athos]

So you don't believe a loving God can work faith in babies. That makes me sad that you don't have that much faith.

Why is it so strange that someone interacts with fellow humans on many levels and always has? I can say the same about my experience with Islam, Hindi's, gays, Hispanics, and a host of others. I don't care about religious affiliations.

The Bible Bingo going on here has been instructive.

Faith in God's creation of babies, and loving our fellow human neighbors whether Islam, Hindis, gays, Hispanics, and a host of others - basic notions about God but beyond the ken of jlisenbe who prefers to list so many Bible verses dwelling on hell and its eternal torture and claiming where so many of those listed and "the host of others" will spend eternity since they haven't accepted Jesus. So very sad.

And some interesting points about the Bible. Words not found in the Bible that undermine traditional teachings – like “Trinity”, for one.

It truly is a fool's errand to discuss the Bible with fundamentalist Bible literalists. Their absurdities can't be pierced by even the most rational of arguments. A literal Bible prevents them from ever seeing the wider, full picture of God.

A classic case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

[jlisenbe]

Oh stop whining. It really, really gets tiresome. This is a discussion between adults. I believe you are completely able to defend your positions, and so I ask questions to clarify your thinking. I'm not going to treat you like a weak, silly female.

This is but ONE of many.

It was a bit over the top. I'd agree to that, but you should see the primary point as being me saying WG is "completely able to defend (her) positions..." It's like I've told her. If she wants me to mind my own business, I'll do that. She hasn't asked me to, so I continue to ask questions. The complaining does get old, but I did express that rudely, so I'll admit to that for her. Now for YOU, who tosses around "b@stard" like it's a compliment, I have nothing. It's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. You have no room to complain.

[talaniman]

I said that was just one of many instances I feel you totally disrespected a posters responses and in a callous personal way, quite beyond just rude. No need for that and after it was pointed out, you just keep right on so here we are and we can just keep down that path or not.

Amazing you can dish it out but not take it! You STOP, I stop! Very simple solution. Up to you!