[talaniman]

They have been invaded.

[paraclete]

Don't believe everything you hear in the media, they had months of demonstrations and lawlessness and the army wasn't sent in, they are now subject to a law which says you can't behave like that and you know what, if it had gone on in the US martial law would have been declared and people would have been killed, so get down off that pedestal before you fall down. HK is an excuse for Trump to screw the Chinese

[talaniman]

You seem to having a problem separating the purpose of demonstrations from the lawless actions of some, so I respectfully submit it's the Chinese who are using the lawlessness as an excuse to suppress legitimate demonstrations for freedoms. The dufus and his ilk are trying that tactic also, making it about the criminals and not the purpose of the demonstrators.

Screw the dufus and the Chinese, or enjoy them screwing each other. 8O

[tomder55]

the "peaceful demonstrators " have been infiltrated by radical Marxists who call themselves 'Black Lives 'Matter ' but are in fact mostly whites who were indoctrinated by the Weather Underground operative of the 1960s turned into college professors .

Here is the difference ... The patriots in Hong Kong are trying to prevent being forced into a life dictated by a communist tyranny .
The "peaceful protesters ' in the US are attempting to create a communist tyranny here is the US .

Here is yesterday when Chi Town cops were surrounded by "peaceful protesters " and pelted with bottles and fireworks .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCbrplVEkLE

Here in NY cops marching with a religious organization were attacked by "peaceful protesters " with bats as the police crossed the Brooklyn Bridge . Above and at NYC the cops did not fight back .

https://www.lawenforcementtoday.com/...ridge-assault/

In Hong Kong the cops club,chase and beat the protesters . That is another difference .

[talaniman]

Hard to tell the difference between peaceful protestors and anarchists be they Americans or Chinese, but for sure the protestors message is lost and subverted in the confusion isn't it?

What's your solution to that as a confused conservative Tom?

[Wondergirl]

What's your solution to that as a confused conservative Tom?

I was going to ask the same thing. Is there a better way? If so, what is it?

[tomder55]

I'm not confused at all It is all clear cut Students of history have seen it all before. There is no difference between Maoists in China and the Marxist "peaceful protesters .

Cullors, 36, was the protégé of Eric Mann, former agitator of the Weather Underground domestic terror organization, and spent years absorbing the Marxist-Leninist ideology that shaped her worldview,

In 1968, Mann was a coordinator for Students for a Democratic Society, from which a more radical wing –- the Weather Underground — was splintered the following year.It was led by Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn, who called for “direct action” over civil disobedience, seeking the overthrow of the US government. In 1969, the FBI classified the group as a domestic terror organization.
Mann was eventually charged with assault and battery, disturbing the peace, damaging property, defacing a building and disturbing a public assembly, for which he spent 18 months behind bars.

“The first thing, I think, is that we actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers,”“We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. "

https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co...ained-marxist/

Ironically the movement is advocating a return to slavery . As we have seen in Russia ,China ,and every other country that attempts to create a Marxist utopia ,the leaders become the masters and the rest of the people become enslaved .

[talaniman]

Are you dodging the question? We agree that lawful protestors get infiltrated by groups with their own agendas, and wreck havoc. The question was telling them apart. Should you squash the freedom of the protestors to end the activities of the subversives?

[tomder55]

It was easy to tell them apart . When the protests were against the brutality of the murder of George Floyd I had no beef with them . When it became open season on police and violent assault on police and civilian alike ; the indiscriminate destruction of property ,larceny , arson , indiscriminate toppling of statuary;the demands to defund the police and replace it with utopian visions of civil patrols that end up resembling the Chaz /Chop street justice (or now in NYC the Crypts v Bloods turf war ) rather than the kumbaya dancing through the tulips that All Out Crazy believes, then it stopped being about Floyd and it became a movement to overthrow our constitutional republic . And yes I think that is a superior 'better way' than what they are selling to us .

[talaniman]

What's your solution to that as a confused conservative Tom?

I know how to best deal with criminals, but is that just an excuse not to address the protestors? China (And HK officials it seems) and the dufus seem to think so, do you?

[tomder55]

I know how to best deal with criminals,

Pick a city to run because clearly the Democrat mayors don't know how to deal with criminals .

but is that just an excuse not to address the protestors?

Not at all . The protestors issues are being addressed . Across the nation police tactics are being reformed to address the protesters concerns .

China (And HK officials it seems) and the dufus seem to think so, do you?

I completely disagree with your comparing Trump to the Chinese and their invasion of Hong Kong . In Hong Kong it is the police attacking and beating the protesters . In the US it is the "peaceful protesters" assaulting the police and anyone else who gets in their way (how many murders were there is peaceful Chaz/Chop ? ).
On the rare cases where police have crossed the line dealing with the mobin the US they have been disciplined .Compare that to this .
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...ence-verified/ You guys fall into this false equivalency all the time .

[paraclete]

I completely disagree with your comparing Trump to the Chinese and their invasion of Hong Kong .

singing from the Trump songbook again Tom, what invasion of HK? you can't invade your own country, a point lost on you, and there has been no "invasion". Law and order has been restored, although the fractious citizens of HK may have no intention of remaining calm. Even in the glorious democracy of the US violent demonstrations are frowned upon and put down. So open criticism of the government is not allowed in HK, there has been a little too much open criticism in the last year perhaps, thus the new law. HK was once, stress once, a British colony. A boil on the arse of progress to the Chinese who earnestly believe all of China is Chinese. I recall the same sentiments existed in the USA

[talaniman]

Tom didn't instigate the invasion idea of HK, I did because the Chinese are "lawfully" reclaiming what was once theirs until the Brits took it. Obviously some don't like that idea for whatever reason, but China doesn't care, and that's the end of that story until they start enforcing the new rules they are imposing on HK. I compared it to the protestor getting popped by the unmarked cops in Portland and detaining another protestor while the locals wanted none of that from the feds. Comparison might be a stretch, but both examples of tyrannical governments in my book.

[paraclete]

Tom didn't instigate the invasion idea of HK, I did because the Chinese are "lawfully" reclaiming what was once theirs until the Brits took it. Obviously some don't like that idea for whatever reason, but China doesn't care, and that's the end of that story until they start enforcing the new rules they are imposing on HK. I compared it to the protestor getting popped by the unmarked cops in Portland and detaining another protestor while the locals wanted none of that from the feds. Comparison might be a stretch, but both examples of tyrannical governments in my book.

It is interesting to note those rules weren't considered necessary until HK rebelled. If you had been to China you would know the grip of the central government is light handed where there is no dissent. I travelled through China and I saw only one soldier and the police weren't that obvious. I was only questioned once and only because my son upset an official. I wonder, in similiar circumstances, would our treatment have been so light handed in the US

[tomder55]

the Chinese are "lawfully" reclaiming what was once theirs until the Brits took it.

there was no unified China when the Brits colonized HK . So it was never the 'Chinese ' to own. Today the Han Chinese rule the nation . At the time of the Brit lease agreement it was the Quing Manchus . The Brits and the Quing signed a lease that gave British sovereignty until 1997 when it was transitioned to Chinese sovereignty .However the treaty agreement gave Hong Kong autonomy ( "one country, two systems" ). The Chinese are violating that with their new security laws and brutal crack down on dissenters .

[tomder55]

wonder, in similiar circumstances, would our treatment have been so light handed in the US

Here if you conduct yourself in a manner that doesn't require police interactions then you will have nothing to worry about. What did your son do to 'upset an official ' ?

[paraclete]

there was no unified China when the Brits colonized HK . So it was never the 'Chinese ' to own. Today the Han Chinese rule the nation . At the time of the Brit lease agreement it was the Quing Manchus . The Brits and the Quing signed a lease that gave British sovereignty until 1997 when it was transitioned to Chinese sovereignty .However the treaty agreement gave Hong Kong autonomy ( "one country, two systems" ). The Chinese are violating that with their new security laws and brutal crack down on dissenters .

The British hagemony has ended, a fact the Chinese are aware of

Here if you conduct yourself in a manner that doesn't require police interactions then you will have nothing to worry about. What did your son do to 'upset an official ' ?

I'm not sure that is entirely correct, an australian woman was killed by a US police officer for no reason.

There was an security officer in the hotel lobby, he showed an interest in our passports and my son snatched his from him saying "give me that" the man fled into his office and we received a visit from the local police who checked our identity, etc and made sure we had entered our details correctly at registration, an explanation that my son was ill and we were only staying the night satisfied them

[tomder55]

That incident is an outlier . The women's name is Justine Ruszczyk. The officer involved ,Mohamed Noor,is a Somali immigrant who joined the force. He refused to answer investigator's questions about the shooting . He later said during the trial that he feared for his life when she approached his patrol car so he fired the shot .
So to sum up ;it was a crime and he was convicted of the crime . After that the chief of police was ousted ,the mayor was voted out of office and the Minneapolis Police Dept , instituted mandatory body cams be turned on on all their officers .

[Athos]

That incident is an outlier

No, it isn't. It's far too common, as witness the all too frequent reports.

[talaniman]

Police brutality is what sparked the 50 days and counting protests, and the underlying criminality directed at police. Half the jails are populated with nonviolent offenders while gangs rove the streets shooting at each other. Unless that is addressed with changing policies Tom then good luck wit that law and order stuff that is directed at the most vulnerable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarc..._United_States

Which starts out with school policies designed to keep those jails full.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline

So let's not pretend we don't know what conservatives and the dufus really mean about law and order. Chicago is a perfect example of the urban policies on gun control really accomplish as while Chicago has strict laws for sales, nobody in the surrounding area does so a few bucks for gas gets dope dealers and gangsters the guns they need to wage war with each other and cops. Now you cannot protect your own suburban white kids from young loons, nor have you tried, citing the right to bear arms so nothing can be done about them. You'd rather stop and frisk and profile black and brown men rather than stunt the flow of guns and drugs that flow through the poor neighborhoods with lousy revenue starved schools and you wonder what the protests are about and having no clue we return to the law and order tactics.

Yeah I bet those poor under sieged cops are quaking in their boots over the terrorism of a few while they have been terrorizing for generations. They haven't served and protected the communities so no wonder they get rocked for serving and protecting property that has become the symbol of oppression, suppression, exploitation, repression, terrorism, and atrocity.

You conservatives just ain't listening in your zeal to preserve your law and order. Naw, it's not deflection, or a distraction to bring up why this country is screwed up, you just refuse to take responsibility for it, and your dufus savior can't save you. So excuse me for broadening your horizons amidst attempts to focus narrowly on one thing and bad mouth the dems for it. You can no longer ignore that more than half the country ain't happy with the half that keeps the goodies all to themselves. In truth it ain't half, it's the few telling the many what their value is and rewarding accordingly. Wall Street and Big biz got bailed out during the disaster they caused, so it's simple bail out main street during this pandemic.

That's a good start and give that equal protection under the law to those abused by the system. That would stop the protests and we can round up those criminal loons you are so afraid of. You could get a lot of help if you stop criminalizing and impoverishing half the population and bad mouthing them.

That's no way to make America great.