[paraclete]

The point is you keep striving to improve, learning from what works well, and what doesn't. It's a process not an event. In the past much blood was shed when some didn't want a union...they lost.

yes and freedom lost that day despite the fact that many became free, the union was far from perfect in fact it was fractured and maybe it has never healed

[tomder55]

tal is right . a perfect union is utopian . a more perfect union is a goal .

[talaniman]

yes and freedom lost that day despite the fact that many became free, the union was far from perfect in fact it was fractured and maybe it has never healed

Some say that the military part ended, but the social war is still being waged.

[paraclete]

Some say that the military part ended, but the social war is still being waged.

i think that is very apparent

[talaniman]

Well maybe ALL the military stuff has not ended.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...teens-n1229806

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tu...ng/ar-BB15uuhd

We have many militias here and cops all armed and ready to rock.

[paraclete]

Well maybe ALL the military stuff has not ended.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...teens-n1229806

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tu...ng/ar-BB15uuhd

We have many militias here and cops all armed and ready to rock.

Yes undoubtedly there are too many on both sides

[talaniman]

Only cops here have qualified immunity though, and a unions behind them. Others have stand your ground, which is the same thing in practice, and everybody uses fear for my life. Killing made legal in most cases, as well as other cruelties and atrocities. I mean young kids being terrorized and brutalized by the badge crowd, for jaywalking down a street with no sidewalks.

[Athos]

as well as other cruelties and atrocities. I mean young kids being terrorized and brutalized by the badge crowd, for jaywalking down a street with no sidewalks.

Agreed.

Cops murdering blacks is obviously not that common, but it exists as the whole world witnesses those videos. It should make us all wonder what bad cops did when videos were not available - like for the last many, many years.

What is just as worrying are the "other cruelties and atrocities" you mentioned. The ones never seen by the public and that are a daily occurrence. The "good" cops share the blame as they remain silent when their brother cops act badly. The Blue Wall of Silence is a criminal reality.

[talaniman]

They didn't believe how brutal racists were until we got the images in our living rooms in the 60's from the south. That was a whole century after the end of slavery. I know everybody has heard of the Tulsa Massacre, and the heyday of the KKK and the acknowledgement and support they got from local, state, and federal governments, yes even in the "liberal" north.

Those rare and isolated encounters with cops by black people are a constant source of near death experiences, abuse, death and jail, and since it takes years and decades for change and I think the generations have seen a shift in just how much cruelty, abuse, and atrocities we're going to take. Trust me minorities are as tired of living it as the majority is seeing and hearing about it. Your rare and isolated is a stark reality.

Next tell me racism and lynchings were rare and isolated events. Yeah right. Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were rare and isolated events. So are abortions rare and isolated events. School shootings, rare and isolated events. The Civil War was a rare and isolated event! I suppose whatever peeve you have is a rare and isolated event. Funny how rare and isolated events can change a lot of lives so profoundly, especially when caught on tape and you're sitting in your living room.

Right now the cops are just the focal point of the outrage people feel and have felt for CENTURIES about a lot of stuff, so I think maybe you should rap your heads around something being done about the festering wound that has been ignored for a long time that this virus has just ripped the band-aid off of. Our whole socio-economic system has been exposed in every area possible for the inequality that has rendered EVERYTHING useless. Instead of the business as usual make America great again crap, we should be making America better than we were. NORMAL ain't cutting it for everybody.

[tomder55]

here is how Sandinista Bill decided to make NYC better . He disbanded the special crimes unit . What was the special crimes unit ? Well they were the elite trained cops . They went out into the city in plain clothes and actually caught crime in the act instead of having to wait to respond to a 9-11 call. How successful were they ? Very . When Times Square was a sewer of crime with routine murder and muggings ; cops were deployed visibly on horse back .Their presence alone was a deterrence because they could look over the crowded streets and see potential criminals . They would alert the special crime officers who were mingled in with the crowd and they would converge . Sometimes nothing would happen .Often as mentioned they would be there as a crime happened . It was that effort that made Time Square a safe place for New Yorkers and tourists to be . Crime dropped ;murder dropped .

So what has happened in the short time since Sandinista Bill has eliminated their presence ?

Shootings are surging this week in New York City, with 28 incidents and 38 victims reported since Monday — the day the NYPD disbanded its plainclothes anti-crime unit, The Post learned on Friday.
By comparison, the same week last year there were only 12 shootings for the entire week.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/19/nyc-sh...pn_0M1jCFmHSwM

There have been 97 shootings this month so far, compared to 89 for the whole month of June last year.

[talaniman]

https://nypost.com/2020/06/15/nypd-d...-of-shootings/

Seems they will still have those plain clothes cops Tom, just some of the "special trained" ones will be reassigned, I suspect younger guys. Not saying whether this is good or bad, or just different but there were a lot of complaints that don't seem to have made the news so we'll see if this spike in violent crimes is a long term trend or a hot summer week in the big city.

[tomder55]

The unit has had a history of high-profile shootings and deaths and, year-over-year, the cops in the patrol account for more than half of police-involved shootings, according to NYPD’s annual discharge reports.

it is very simple . They are there when the crime is happening . Not 5-10 minutes later responding to a 9-11 call that a crime is happening . So of course they are more involved in violent encounters . All those alleged abuses and all the article cited is the Garner choking death .That and one accidental blue on blue killing .

[talaniman]

it is very simple . They are there when the crime is happening . Not 5-10 minutes later responding to a 9-11 call that a crime is happening . So of course they are more involved in violent encounters . All those alleged abuses and all the article cited is the Garner choking death .That and one accidental blue on blue killing .

You certainly make it sound simple and clear cut Tom, you usually do, but I've been reading that this isn't the only time a cop unit has been disbanded and reformed and seems to be a go to tactic during controversial times.

https://time.com/5854015/nypd-anti-c...loyd-protests/

The anti-crime unit took on many of the duties of the former Street Crime Unit, which was closed in a largely symbolic move after it was hit with a racial profiling lawsuit and four of its officers killed Guinean immigrant Amadou Diallo in 1999 in a barrage of 41 shots.In its pursuit of illegal guns, the anti-crime unit relied heavily on stopping and frisking people without justification. A federal judge ruled in 2013 that the practice violated the civil rights of minorities.

You gotta do something until the protestors go home and that may not be soon.

[jlisenbe]

the cops in the patrol account for more than half of police-involved shootings, according to NYPD’s annual discharge reports.

So cops on the beat are more likely to discharge their pistols than cops doing paperwork? Who would have thought that would not have been the case? Am I missing something there?

You gotta do something until the protestors go home

Democracy by intimidation. Doesn't sound appealing to me.

[talaniman]

So cops on the beat are more likely to discharge their pistols than cops doing paperwork? Who would have thought that would not have been the case? Am I missing something there?

What a screwball statement.

Democracy by intimidation. Doesn't sound appealing to me.

You don't have to listen if you don't want to, but somebody better, because the protestors don't seem to be going home. Hard to ignore a group that size that have gotten peaceful yet persistent. In addition I don't think they care about what appeals to anybody but what is driving them now. So regardless of what you may think, they clearly have had enough crap.

Can you hear that yet?

[jlisenbe]

What a screwball statement.

I thought it was as well. Why did you post it?

You don't have to listen if you don't want to, but somebody better, because the protestors don't seem to be going home. Hard to ignore a group that size that have gotten peaceful yet persistent. In addition I don't think they care about what appeals to anybody but what is driving them now.

Like I said, they are attempting to practice democracy by intimidation. I'm willing to listen, but listening has to be a two-way street.

So regardless of what you may think, they clearly have had enough crap.

So the question now pertains to when will the rest of American look at their antics and decide we have also had just about enough.

[tomder55]

the unit was looking for perhaps the worse serial rapist in NYC history a guy named Isaac Jones who had over 50 rapes/assaults attributed to him . He just happened to live in the same neighborhood as Diallo ;one of the city’s most crime-ridden neighborhoods..... and Diallo fit his description .Diallo made a living by street peddling bootleg videos .

The four cops also were briefed that night about a rash of shootings in the neighborhood, including the murder of a livery cabdriver.

Officers Sean Carroll and Edward McMellon got out of the car, identified themselves as police, and asked Diallo to stop . And that is where the tragedy should've ended with Diallo doing what the cops instructed him to do . Bad things are going to happen if you run away when police tell you to stop . That act alone puts the cop's safety at risk. Did I tell you that besides illegally selling videos on the streets ,he was also an illegal alien who had filed a false asylum claim? So yeah he did not want to get arrested .He ran up the stairs and the 4 cops went in pursuit. He was told to show his hands and instead he reached into his pocket and pulled out his wallet ;which in the silhouette the cops mistook for a gun. One of the cops ,McMellon fired 3 times at Diallo ,probably disabling him. But as circumstances had it ,bullets ricocheted McMellon tripped and fell breaking his tail bone . His fellow officers thought he had been shot .That is why the barrage of bullets followed .
All the cops were found not guilty . Yes it was a tragedy . But it does not negate all the good the unit did for the city . Previously it was reconstituted because Mayors like Bloomy saw the value in crime prevention. Sandinista Bill doesn't .He thinks law enforcement is the problem.

[Athos]

Bad things are going to happen if you run away when police tell you to stop . That act alone puts the cop's safety at risk.

Running away from cops puts the cops' safety at risk?

Did I tell you that besides illegally selling videos on the streets ,he was also an illegal alien who had filed a false asylum claim?

No, you didn't tell us. What in the world does that have to do with the final outcome?

the cops mistook for a gun. One of the cops ,McMellon fired 3 times at Diallo ,probably disabling him. But as circumstances had it ,bullets ricocheted ...... etc., etc., etc.............................his tail bone . His fellow officers thought he had been shot .That is why the barrage of bullets followed .All the cops were found not guilty .

Tomder, do you seriously believe the story would have been as you described (with cops the only witnesses) if a video had been available of the confrontation? I doubt it.

[tomder55]

I can't speculate about what a video would show . Neither should you. A jury absolved all the cops . And yes ,running from cops puts the cops in danger . Without resisting then the 4th amendment protections against unreasonable force is clear cut . Resisting arrest now puts the cop in a position to have to decide how much violent force is reasonable . Do you think Cops don't get hurt chasing a suspect down? The cop who would like to make it how to their families now have uncertainty about how far the suspect will go to resist . You know what else puts cops at risk ? Emptying Ryker's prison puts cops and civilians at risk . And catch and release like Sandinista Bill does puts cops at risk.

BTW ;over 20 shootings in NYC in the last 24 hours . wtg Sandinista Bill !!! you a$$Wipe !!

[Athos]

I can't speculate about what a video would show . Neither should you. A jury absolved all the cops . And yes ,running from cops puts the cops in danger . Without resisting then the 4th amendment protections against unreasonable force is clear cut . Resisting arrest now puts the cop in a position to have to decide how much violent force is reasonable . Do you think Cops don't get hurt chasing a suspect down? The cop who would like to make it how to their families now have uncertainty about how far the suspect will go to resist . You know what else puts cops at risk ? Emptying Ryker's prison puts cops and civilians at risk . And catch and release like Sandinista Bill does puts cops at risk.

BTW ;over 20 shootings in NYC in the last 24 hours . wtg Sandinista Bill !!! you a$$Wipe !!

Ok - I'll give you the cop safety thing about running. I was thinking that the bad guy was also in danger - he might have gotten two in the back.

No, I don't know what a video would show. I was speculating. What I DO know is the Soundview section of the Bronx. I also know the cop culture in the Bronx - many of the guys I grew up with in the Bronx became cops. They were a mixed lot and the stories they told in the local bars after work about working in Harlem and Bed-Stuy and 138th St & Willis Avenue (South Bronx) were not designed to encourage or even recognize racial justice.

The story then was the black cops were worse than the white cops, tougher on their own.

Maybe now is the time for long-needed change to start.