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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #41

    Jun 3, 2020, 04:15 AM
    "Extremely isolated cases of police brutality"? Are you serious? Your ignorance is glaring. Spend time in any black ghetto in this country and then come back and tell us how extremely isolated bad treatment, including brutality, is in black neighborhoods.
    So you've done this? You've "spent time" in black ghettos? Now unlike you, I've worked in inner city schools, "spent time in black ghettos", and became familiar with those testimonies. They were few and far between.

    Why don't you accept the testimony of ordinary African-Americans who are quick to comment how police act in their neighborhoods? - I think we know why you don't.
    I'm perfectly happy to accept those testimonies, but at some point you're going to have to abandon your generalities and list some specifics. I'll give some. Since the George Floyd atrocity, an average of 21 black people every day have been murdered, over 90% of them by other black people. They die silently since there is no political advantage to be gained by publicizing their deaths. It's tragic and sad. People should be able to live in safety.

    For the record - Blaming the black community 100% for their difficulties is absurd. Equally to blame are the historic forces that have been lined up against them for centuries, and ongoing.
    If I was doing the former and not doing the latter, then I would agree with you. The main point, which clearly zoomed right over your head, is that the black community, unlike in the fifties and sixties, is now in the place where white oppression is not their chief problem, or even a major problem. The biggest problems they face, and this is true in all ethnic populations in our country, are subject to their own control. No white racist or conservative government can stop the black population from improving itself enormously, but it will not be an easy task. Having a pres who achieved the lowest black unemployment in history is certainly helpful, but it's only a small step. There is much hard work to be done.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #42

    Jun 3, 2020, 09:57 AM
    While the dufus is doing dopey stuff, there are actually people doing the right thing and keeping the peace the right way.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/tune...heim-ntp-feeds

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So you've done this? You've "spent time" in black ghettos? Now unlike you, I've worked in inner city schools, "spent time in black ghettos", and became familiar with those testimonies. They were few and far between.
    I'm perfectly happy to accept those testimonies, but at some point you're going to have to abandon your generalities and list some specifics. I'll give some. Since the George Floyd atrocity, an average of 21 black people every day have been murdered, over 90% of them by other black people. They die silently since there is no political advantage to be gained by publicizing their deaths. It's tragic and sad. People should be able to live in safety.
    For one thing black on black crime happens within the poor communities of black people, trapped in those ever eroding enclaves of opportunity and services, save for the racists cops who rule over them. That's no generality, that's just reality. If they could afford to move, no doubt they would, but can't. No they don't die silently, since everyone there knows them, but it happens so often it can be ignored by everybody else outside the depression zone. Cop are not the friend in these places, just the opposite, so NO services, NO protection, and NO opportunity perpetuates the condition that over time is exacerbated by utter neglect.
    If I was doing the former and not doing the latter, then I would agree with you. The main point, which clearly zoomed right over your head, is that the black community, unlike in the fifties and sixties, is now in the place where white oppression is not their chief problem, or even a major problem. The biggest problems they face, and this is true in all ethnic populations in our country, are subject to their own control. No white racist or conservative government can stop the black population from improving itself enormously, but it will not be an easy task. Having a pres who achieved the lowest black unemployment in history is certainly helpful, but it's only a small step. There is much hard work to be done.
    I disagree fully and site as above the NEGLECT that is the tool of oppression, suppression, and a target for exploitation not just by the system, but any nefarious entity trying to make some illegal bucks. The notion that they control their own destinies is but a lame excuse to ignore them even further. One should wrap their heads around the money involved in that neglect to buy cheap, sell high, as a long term strategy for riches, because indeed somebody makes money from the existence of ghetto slums areas. Maybe part of your own experiences in this area JL should not just be the altruistic blame game, but the centuries old money game going back to right after the civil war.

    I think I have mentioned before the gentrification that goes on in those slums and ghettos and you should not ignore that very real economic strategy.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #43

    Jun 3, 2020, 03:25 PM
    save for the racists cops who rule over them. That's no generality, that's just reality.
    Everytime I read crap like that, I can't help but hope that the cops pull all of their units out of your neighborhood for a while. After a few months of that, you'd be happy to have those "racist cops" back.
    The notion that they control their own destinies is but a lame excuse to ignore them even further.
    Oh?? Which of these do they not control? Out of wedlock births? Rampant criminal activity by young black men? Disintegration of the family unit? Black on black crime? Which of those does the black community not control? And which of those would not yield amazing benefit upon being corrected?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #44

    Jun 3, 2020, 05:32 PM
    https://www.nationalmemo.com/st-john...ngton-dc-trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Everytime I read crap like that, I can't help but hope that the cops pull all of their units out of your neighborhood for a while. After a few months of that, you'd be happy to have those "racist cops" back.
    I agree get rid of the racist cop period, and just have good dedicated cops. No cop would be better than racist cops.

    Oh?? Which of these do they not control? Out of wedlock births? Rampant criminal activity by young black men? Disintegration of the family unit? Black on black crime? Which of those does the black community not control? And which of those would not yield amazing benefit upon being corrected?
    I think white people suffer the same maladies and it may be worse, since they commit more violent crimes than black people do. They just don't suffer the same consequences as white folks do.

    https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...-s-news-media/

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ustice-system/

    https://www.citylab.com/equity/2019/...e-data/595528/

    Out of wedlock births?

    Doesn't necessarily mean a two parent or family unit is not involved.

    Rampant criminal activity by young black men?

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/are-b...nal-rac_b_8398

    Disintegration of the family unit?

    Half the married people in America get divorced. most get remarried and get divorced again.

    Black on black crime?

    The crime rates are falling for everybody.

    Which of those does the black community not control?

    Not enough control, and they certainly don't own the land where they live in their community. Like I said if the could afford to move they would and do.

    You never talk about the shortcomings of white people, but love to critique black people. Just an observation.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #45

    Jun 3, 2020, 07:19 PM
    Out of wedlock births? Doesn't necessarily mean a two parent or family unit is not involved.
    Uhm...actually, that's exactly what it means.

    Rampant criminal activity by young black men?
    "African-Americans are roughly six times as likely as white Americans to die at the hands of amurderer, and roughly seven times as likely to murder someone; their victims are black 82% ofthe time.1 Homicide is the second most important reason for the racial gap in life expectancy:eliminating homicide would do more to equalize black and white life expectancy than eliminatingany other cause of death except heart disease."

    http://www.columbia.edu/~rs328/Homicide.pdf

    Disintegration of the family unit? Half the married people in America get divorced. most get remarried and get divorced again.
    A far larger percentage of black children are raised in a single-parent home than are non-black children.


    Black on black crime? The crime rates are falling for everybody.
    So?

    I'm happy to talk about the shortcomings of white people. It is similar to the shortcomings of the black community, but the point remains. All of the situations above are solvable by the black community alone and would bring about great benefits. So the question should be asked, why don't they get talked about?
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #46

    Jun 3, 2020, 08:33 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So you've done this? You've "spent time" in black ghettos?
    More lies from you. I never said that. But I can listen to black people describing their life in areas patrolled by police. THAT is the issue here - not your usual diversion.

    Now unlike you, I've worked in inner city schools, "spent time in black ghettos", and became familiar with those testimonies. They were few and far between.
    You have no idea whether I've spent time in black neighborhoods but that doesn't stop you from lying - like your "few and far between" testimonies of black people. This is a common theme of white supremacists. More and more, with each post, you come across as one of them.

    Since the George Floyd atrocity, an average of 21 black people every day have been murdered, over 90% of them by other black people.
    Another theme of the white supremacists. The issue is not crime, which you are doing your damndest to change the subject to, but police treatment in black neighborhoods.

    The main point, which clearly zoomed right over your head, is that the black community, unlike in the fifties and sixties, is now in the place where white oppression is not their chief problem, or even a major problem.
    Nothing you say could ever zoom over my head - you're too little. Yes, those wonderful 50s and 60s where segregation was the rule and where black people "knew their place". No surprise you yearn for those days.

    The biggest problems they face, and this is true in all ethnic populations in our country, are subject to their own control.
    Reading your posts here is like reading the playbook of white supremacy. To compare the black experience as the same as "all ethnic populations" in our country reveals your ignorance as nothing you have written so far. The Irish, having the same language and appearance, assimilated within a single generation. The Italians a few more generations. The Jews a generation or two but still not perfectly (a separate subject). All the rest more or less the same.

    Now let's look at the African-American experience. From arriving here unwillingly as slaves to the present day, the number of generations has been enormously greater than any ethnic group and the assimilation is STILL not fully accomplished. Did you ever stop to consider WHY all those bad things you blame blacks for exist? And what the source is? No, of course not. What racist would.

    No white racist or conservative government can stop the black population from improving itself enormously
    Then how do you explain the phenomenal success of the white supremacists for hundreds of years?

    but it will not be an easy task.
    True, thanks to you and your ilk. That's the first true thing you've said here.

    Having a pres who achieved the lowest black unemployment in history is certainly helpful
    If you want Trump to take undeserved credit for the economy's recovery begun by Obama, then it's only fair you take blame for the gigantic drop in black employment during his fourth year. I believe it's in the millions - the largest drop in history thanks to Trump.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #47

    Jun 3, 2020, 08:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post



    then it's only fair you take blame for the gigantic drop in black employment during his third term. I believe it's in the millions - the largest drop in history thanks to Trump.
    What third term is that wishfull thinking
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    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #48

    Jun 3, 2020, 09:09 PM
    My fault - thanks - fourth YEAR, not third TERM! Good Lord!
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #49

    Jun 4, 2020, 04:33 AM
    You have no idea whether I've spent time in black neighborhoods but that doesn't stop you from lying - like your "few and far between" testimonies of black people. This is a common theme of white supremacists. More and more, with each post, you come across as one of them.
    What a fantasy world you live in. Between the two of us, I'm the one who has actually spent time (years) working with inner city kids and their families. In other words, I'm the only one who cared enough to actually spend time helping.

    Nothing you say could ever zoom over my head
    Funny. It still does. Your hate-filled rhetoric demonstrates that you just don't get it. Too bad. Maybe some day you'll catch on. Spend 17 years of your life actually working with minority kids and their families, and then come back and talk to us. Then you can offer something more than just talk.

    So you've done this? You've "spent time" in black ghettos?



    More lies from you. I never said that. But I can listen to black people describing their life in areas patrolled by police. THAT is the issue here - not your usual diversion.
    You don't know the difference between a question and a statement? I didn't say you did, I asked if you did. And the obvious answer is...NO. So it seems you have many theories but no practical experience. That does not surprise me.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #50

    Jun 4, 2020, 05:10 AM
    @Athos, thank you for listening, that's a hopeful sign as we see the very broad cross section of America protesting this murder of a citizen by police.

    @JL, trying to shout over the real issue instead of listening is a distraction that won't work. Can't wait for you to criticize your own like you have accused liberals of not doing.

    It saddens me that the sum total of your inner city experience is to criticize shortcomings.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #51

    Jun 4, 2020, 05:23 AM
    @JL, trying to shout over the real issue instead of listening is a distraction that won't work. Can't wait for you to criticize your own like you have accused liberals of not doing.
    I'm perfectly willing to listen, but I'm not into these emotional responses. I'm much more concerned about the long-term. Unless the black community addresses out of wedlock births, poor schools, etc., they will not make progress. Maybe you don't care about that. I do.

    It saddens me that the sum total of your inner city experience is to criticize shortcomings.
    Pointing out shortcomings is not the same thing as criticizing them, and my experience was to get in the middle of it and help. But at any rate, aren't you being critical yourself? Is that the sum total of your experience? Maybe we should knock off the rhetoric and engage in a sensible discussion. Some here are too busy spewing anger and hate to do that, but I know that you can.

    What is really needed is an emotion-free, hate-free, rhetoric-free discussion. It would be nice to have one. Not that there would be no strong statements, but that there would be a mutual recognition of lines which should not be crossed.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #52

    Jun 4, 2020, 05:38 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I'm perfectly willing to listen, but I'm not into these emotional responses. I'm much more concerned about the long-term. Unless the black community addresses out of wedlock births, poor schools, etc., they will not make progress. Maybe you don't care about that. I do.
    The black community has been hollering with words and actions for generations about the brutality of police and racists with hoods before that. When do you make a willingness to listen an actual action instead of what YOU think we should care about first? The recent caught on camera callous murder of a black man is but the tip of the iceberg in my communities which you ignore trying to preach what you think should be done.

    You may be willing to listen, but have not to date.

    Pointing out shortcomings is not the same thing as criticizing them, and my experience was to get in the middle of it and help. But at any rate, aren't you being critical yourself? Is that the sum total of your experience? Why don't you knock off the rhetoric and engage in a sensible discussion.
    This isn't about you and what you've done it's about LISTENING which you haven't done. Don't even try to put your years against my lifetime experience of actually being a part of the community. That's personally insulting, but you aren't listening.

    You can't listen and preach at the same time, and obviously you rather preach to, than listen to, the black man. Don't be offended if they don't listen to you, or push back vigorously.

    Your first clue was the diversity of the crowds that have been protesting since this death of a citizen across the NATION. This ain't a local thing, nor restricted to just black people.
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    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #53

    Jun 4, 2020, 05:39 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    It saddens me that the sum total of your inner city experience is to criticize shortcomings.
    I couldn't have said it any better. Right into the bulls-eye!
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #54

    Jun 4, 2020, 05:44 AM
    1. His observation, as I pointed out, was not correct.
    2. At least I, unlike you, actually troubled myself to get into the middle of minority communities and help. Seventeen years for me, and evidently 0 for you, so yeah, I tend to not pay much attention to your theories. If you ever gain any practical experience, get back with us. Until then, you barely qualify to be an amateur.
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    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #55

    Jun 4, 2020, 05:55 AM
    17 years in the inner city and you never heard about police brutality or racists cop? Or racism PERIOD?
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    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #56

    Jun 4, 2020, 05:58 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    1. His observation, as I pointed out, was not correct.
    Tal's observation was perfectly correct. Whatever you point out is generally incorrect. But keep trying.

    2. At least I, unlike you, actually troubled myself to get into the middle of minority communities and help.
    Your total lack of understanding is a strong indicator you wasted your time - if in fact you're telling the truth which is a separate question.

    I tend to not pay much attention to your theories.
    I don't write for those who cannot see, only for those who have eyes.

    you barely qualify to be an amateur.
    God knows what that makes you. You are certainly a master at and more than qualified to spout insulting nonsense. Other than that, you rarely provide much meat for others to chew on.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #57

    Jun 4, 2020, 06:04 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    What a fantasy world you live in. Between the two of us, I'm the one who has actually spent time (years) working with inner city kids and their families. In other words, I'm the only one who cared enough to actually spend time helping.

    Funny. It still does. Your hate-filled rhetoric demonstrates that you just don't get it. Too bad. Maybe some day you'll catch on. Spend 17 years of your life actually working with minority kids and their families, and then come back and talk to us. Then you can offer something more than just talk.

    You don't know the difference between a question and a statement? I didn't say you did, I asked if you did. And the obvious answer is...NO. So it seems you have many theories but no practical experience. That does not surprise me.
    A lot of words with little punch. You always manage to avoid the real issue being discussed. It's not surprising.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #58

    Jun 4, 2020, 07:08 AM
    Like I said. "Your hate-filled rhetoric demonstrates that you just don't get it. Too bad. Maybe some day you'll catch on."

    Your total lack of understanding is a strong indicator you wasted your time - if in fact you're telling the truth which is a separate question.
    Yeah. I'm sure all those years you've spent sitting in your living room has given you great understanding. You're like a guy who's seen a few pictures of the Grand Canyon trying to lecture someone who worked there as a park ranger. It just won't work. Instead of just talking, go work in an inner city school for even a couple of months and then come back and share your insights. I dare you to get off your cozy couch and go do it. Be a man and give it a shot. I guarantee you that you will learn a lot more than your students.

    Me telling the truth? Remember Aquinas???
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #59

    Jun 4, 2020, 07:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    17 years in the inner city and you never heard about police brutality or racists cop? Or racism PERIOD?
    Missed your response, my bad?
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #60

    Jun 4, 2020, 07:46 AM
    Sorry. Didn't see your comment. Did I see instances of racism? Some, but as far as negative impacts on the lives of my students, it was miles away from being the biggest problem. Fatherless homes was far and away the biggest problem. I would say that an insufficient emphasis on the value of learning, beginning as toddlers all the way to seniors, would be in second place. People would get upset about our state flag. Well, I agree it should be changed and voted in favor of changing it, but changing the flag will not change the direction or prospects of a single life. Creating strong families would do far, far more good.

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