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    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #1

    Apr 28, 2020, 08:03 AM
    Greeks and Jesus
    John 12:20-26 Some Greeks ask to see Jesus. Jesus is told about it and he launches into a lesson about...something else.
    I have never been able to make sense of this sequence of events, or why these Greeks are even mentioned. As far as we know, they never see him and go away denied. Meanwhile, Jesus is talking on a different topic.
    Any thoughts?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #2

    Apr 28, 2020, 10:42 AM
    First problem: Who were these Greeks? I checked various commentaries and like how Thomas Coke explained it --

    John 12:20. And there were certain Greeks— After the conquest of Darius by Alexander, all his successors of different nations were called Greeks, whence came the name of "the Grecian monarchy," otherwise called "the Syro-Macedonian." Thus Antiochus Epiphanes is said to have reigned in the hundred and thirty-seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks, 1 Maccabees 1:10. St. Paul likewise often distinguishes all other nations from the Jews by the name of Greeks, Romans 1:16; Romans 2:9; Romans 10:12 and the greater part of Syria was, in our Saviour's time, called Greece by the Jews. Hence, when he was in the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and a woman besought him to cast the evil spirit out of her daughter, she is called a Greek, a Syro-phoenicean by nation, Mark 7:26 and these Greeks who were desirous to see Jesus, were probably of the same nation, and known to Philip, who is here said to have been a native of Bethsaida in Galilee, a neighbouring country, for which reason they might particularlyapply themselves to him. As all the Gentiles were thus named by the Jews Ελληνες, it denoted their religion, rather than their country; but in the present instance, the persons called Greeks were not idolatrous Gentiles; for their business at the feast, which was to worship, shews that they were proselytes to the Jewish religion, and that they cherished expectations of the Messiah. See Acts 2:5; Acts 8:27; Acts 13:43.

    Also Heinrich Meyer's explanation --

    John 12:20. The Hellenes are, as in John 7:35, not Greek Jews, Hellenists (Calvin, Semler, B. Crusius, Ewald), but Gentiles,—proselytes, however, as is shown by what follows (note especially the pres. part. ἀναβαιν.: who were wont to go up), and that of the gate, like the Aethiopian chamberlain, Acts 8:27, not pure Gentiles (Chrysostom, Theophylact, Euth. Zigabenus, Salmasius, Selden, and several others, including Paulus, Klee, Schweizer).

    Where
    did the scene take place? Probably in the court of the temple, with which locality, at least, the entry just related, and the connected transactions, onwards to John 12:36, best correspond. According to Baur, however (comp. also Scholten), the whole affair is to be referred simply to the idea of the author, who makes Jesus, under the ascendancy of Jewish unbelief, to be glorified by believing heathendom. This idea is that of the history itself. Bengel rightly observes: “Praeludium regni Dei a Judaeis ad gentes transituri.”
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #3

    Apr 30, 2020, 07:03 AM
    Well and good, but I'm wondering why it's there at all. As far as I can see, it contributes nothing to the narrative.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
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    #4

    Apr 30, 2020, 09:14 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    Well and good, but I'm wondering why it's there at all. As far as I can see, it contributes nothing to the narrative.
    Maybe to show that Jesus welcomes and embraces everyone, no matter nationality or culture or lifestyle or livelihood or even orientation.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #5

    May 1, 2020, 06:11 AM
    Maybe to show that Jesus welcomes and embraces everyone, no matter nationality or culture or lifestyle or livelihood or even orientation.
    He welcomes and embraces everyone who comes to Him on His terms. What did He tell the woman caught in adultery? "Go and sin no more." That message never changes. Same thing with the rich young ruler. Have you ever read that he told someone, "Go and live any way you want?"

    As to the Greeks, that's a really good question. It's possible, of course, that he did see them. Perhaps the story is there to contrast with the attitudes of the Pharisees who most definitely did not want to see or listen to Jesus.
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    #6

    May 1, 2020, 09:02 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    He welcomes and embraces everyone who comes to Him on His terms.
    What??? Jesus reaches out to everyone. Any one of those has the choice to say, "No, thanks."

    As for "Greeks" (from the quoted material I previously posted in this thread):
    St. Paul likewise often distinguishes all other nations from the Jews by the name of Greeks, Romans 1:16; Romans 2:9; Romans 10:12 and the greater part of Syria was, in our Saviour's time, called Greece by the Jews.
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    #7

    May 1, 2020, 10:43 AM
    What??? Jesus reaches out to everyone. Any one of those have the choice to say, "No, thanks."
    I would agree with that. "No, thanks, Jesus. I think I will stick with my way."
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    #8

    May 1, 2020, 11:25 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I would agree with that. "No, thanks, Jesus. I think I will stick with my way."
    You didn't scold me about my (deliberate) grammar mistake. [What??? Jesus reaches out to everyone. Any one of those have the choice to say, "No, thanks."]

    You're slipping!
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    #9

    May 1, 2020, 12:50 PM
    I'm getting older everyday, WG. I miss the minutiae from time to time. And I think you will give me some applause for my sincere effort with my vocabulary. Yes??? Minutiae! Yeah.
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    #10

    May 1, 2020, 12:59 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I'm getting older everyday, WG. I miss the minutiae from time to time. And I think you will give me some applause for my sincere effort with my vocabulary. Yes??? Minutiae! Yeah.
    It's NOT minutiae! (Did you take Latin?) It's subject-verb agreement! I went back and corrected it in my original post.

    And I really like your answer to dwashbur's question:
    "As to the Greeks, that's a really good question. It's possible, of course, that he did see them. Perhaps the story is there to contrast with the attitudes of the Pharisees who most definitely did not want to see or listen to Jesus."
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    #11

    May 1, 2020, 01:33 PM
    You do realize, I hope, that you are slowly but surely regaining your status as the committed grammarian?

    Even if you did not agree with it, wouldn't you still give me a few props for using the word? I think it's a great word.
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    #12

    May 1, 2020, 02:15 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You do realize, I hope, that you are slowly but surely regaining your status as the committed grammarian?
    Oh, my! Those are the sweetest words I've heard all week!
    Even if you did not agree with it, wouldn't you still give me a few props for using the word? I think it's a great word.
    I am simply in awe that you so quickly pulled that word out of your personal lexicon! I want to shout
    "Venivit, visit, vincit!"
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    #13

    May 1, 2020, 02:40 PM
    Uhm...have no idea what that means. It does sound Italian. And I pulled that word out of my own, 67 year old head.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
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    #14

    May 1, 2020, 03:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Uhm...have no idea what that means. I does sound Italian. And I pulled that word out of my own, 67 year old head.
    You've heard or read "veni, vidi, vici"? It's Latin. Supposedly, Julius Caesar said it after his quick victory in his short war against Pharnaces II of Pontus at the Battle of Zela. That famous declaration is in first person. The one I posted to you is in third person. Now, feel free to google.

    See how these threads begin to meander, dwashbur?!
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    #15

    May 1, 2020, 06:06 PM
    It's bound to be, "I came, I saw, I conquered."
    Wondergirl's Avatar
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    #16

    May 1, 2020, 06:30 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    It's bound to be, "I came, I saw, I conquered."
    Nope. Close! Third person (WG speaking about JL), not first person (JL speaking about himself):

    "Venivit, visit, vincit!"

    ("Veni, vidi, vici" is the famous quote by Caesar. First person, "I" as the subject.)

    Hey, I could teach you Latin conjugations and declensions, JL!
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #17

    May 1, 2020, 10:20 PM
    You came, you saw, you conquered???
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    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #18

    May 2, 2020, 08:27 AM
    That one confused me, too.

    I doubt he saw the Greeks, and I don't understand his answer when he was told about them. It strikes me a bit like this:

    "The kitchen faucet is leaking. Can you fix it?"

    "Did I ever tell you about the wart on my elbow?"
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #19

    May 2, 2020, 08:38 AM
    There is no direct explanation of it in the text, so we are left to speculate. It is odd that the story was even included and you do wonder what the point was. I imagine it is one of those, "You would have to have been there," situations.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #20

    May 2, 2020, 09:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by dwashbur View Post
    That one confused me, too.

    I doubt he saw the Greeks, and I don't understand his answer when he was told about them. It strikes me a bit like this:

    "The kitchen faucet is leaking. Can you fix it?"

    "Did I ever tell you about the wart on my elbow?"
    I have decided Jesus took a quick look and saw them and thought, Yo! Even the 'Greeks' [non-Jews] are here to check out the temple and join us in worship! Which reminds me, where on earth are the Pharisees? They're supposed to be here, too!" Then Jesus said, "And now that at least some of us are here, did you ever think about what can happen with a seed?"

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