[paraclete]

Not everyone has the same ability, or aptitude.

or the same level of intelligence it seems. The fact is more of the same just doesn't cut it

[jlisenbe]

1) You aren't being forced since you agreed to obey the law as an American citizen. Don't like the laws, change them LAWFULLY.

Sounds good to me.

2)You under estimate they hardships they endure for a few bucks yet they still come for work despite the dangers.

I haven't estimated their hardships one way or the other.

3)You're welcome, but it's just insights and observations as the solution is obviously a better system.

Nope. The solution is for people to depend upon their own work to provide for their own needs.

4)Not you personally maybe, but the system does or tries to.

That's possible.

5)Maybe the jobs aren't where they are sitting and they have no money or support to make a move, even though some have. Not everyone has the same ability, or aptitude.

Once black people escaped slavery in the south, many of them walked hundreds of miles to northern cities to find a better life. I think they would be astonished at your reasoning that because it is difficult, then those people shouldn't even try.

Not everyone has the same ability or aptitude. So? Get out and get with it. Remember the three keys. 1. Don't get pregnant before marriage. 2. Graduate from high school. 3. Get a job (or two) and work hard at it (or them). I would add a fourth. Don't listen to ANYONE who provides you with excuses for not making it.

[talaniman]

Once black people escaped slavery in the south, many of them walked hundreds of miles to northern cities to find a better life. I think they would be astonished at your reasoning that because it is difficult, then those people shouldn't even try.

That's not my reasoning just your perception, which is in error, as obviously the struggle continues and it's always been difficult!

[jlisenbe]

That's not my reasoning just your perception, which is in error, as obviously the struggle continues and it's always been difficult!

Maybe so, but it's comments like this one that makes it sure sound that way. "Strange that people don't want to leave family and cities to work on a farm? What's strange about that?" You seem to be saying that if someone doesn't want to have to go to the trouble to leave place A and move to place B to get a job, then they should be able to simply take money from other working Americans. Perhaps I have misunderstood you?

[Wondergirl]

Plenty of harvesting going on in Florida and Cally. Young sir? I am flattered!

One of us has to be nice....

That's what buses are for. Good grief you must think those people are all barnyard stupid. When they want to go somewhere, they find a way. When I was in that situation? When I was teaching school, I worked at Walmart evenings and weekends to make ends meet. I've mowed yards, bagged groceries, worked at a sawmill, and hauled furniture in my lifetime and never thought anything of it, so don't talk to me about if I was "in that situation". You picked the wrong person for that liberal rhetoric.

Yeah, yeah. I'd keep you up all night if I listed all the crummy, low-paying jobs I've had. And I stopped taking buses between home and college because they got to be too expensive. So we car-pooled for the 700-mile ride.

[jlisenbe]

One of us has to be nice....

Ouch!!

Yeah, yeah. I'd keep you up all night if I listed all the crummy, low-paying jobs I've had. And I stopped taking buses between home and college because they got to be too expensive. So we car-pooled for the 700-mile ride.

Exactly. That's why your taxpayer money should NEVER go to someone who simply doesn't want to work. "Might have to move to another place? So? Get moving and get on with your life."

[Wondergirl]

Ouch!!

But I still love you....

Exactly. That's why your taxpayer money should NEVER go to someone who simply doesn't want to work. "Might have to move to another place? So? Get moving and get on with your life."

There are too many who would LOVE to work but are saddled with those born-kids conservative Christian shamed them into keeping during pregnancy -- and then those same "pro-life" Christians refuse to give those strugglng moms any financial help, leaving that mission to us liberal Christians -- "Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me."

[jlisenbe]

But I still love you....

Thank goodness!

There are too many who would LOVE to work but are saddled with those born-kids conservative Christian shamed them into keeping during pregnancy --

If that's your beef, that those women listened to evil pro-lifers and did not kill their unborn children, then maybe we can pass a law to allow them to kill those darn pesky kids now before they can cause any more problems. After all, if it's OK to kill them before they're born, then why not kill them after they're born, especially since they are causing so many problems?

and then those same "pro-life" Christians refuse to give those strugglng moms any financial help, leaving that mission to us liberal Christians

WG, I'm sorry to say this, but that's a flatly false statement. In our area you can count on no help at all from liberal dems, Christian or otherwise. The crisis pregnancy centers and church based help ministries are all supported by evangelical Christians or conservative Catholics. You don't know what you're talking about. You won't even join in a call for young single women (as well as single men) to postpone sex until after marriage to prevent this very kind of situation.

And besides, just a few days ago you were loudly proclaiming on this board that you are not a liberal, but rather are a conservative. Remember that I asked you then to provide your conservative bonafides? So which way is it?

[jlisenbe]

[talaniman]

WG, I'm sorry to say this, but that's a flatly false statement. In our area you can count on no help at all from liberal dems, Christian or otherwise. The crisis pregnancy centers and church based help ministries are all supported by evangelical Christians or conservative Catholics.

Wonder what kind of help that you provide? What about those Southern Baptists and Methodist church folk I've read about? Who runs the hospitals and clinics?

You don't know what you're talking about. You won't even join in a call for young single women (as well as single men) to postpone sex until after marriage to prevent this very kind of situation.

Never heard of WG advocating premarital sex ever, and she has been very clear about her choices many times. She doesn't seem to be keen of those fundies though from what I've read.

And besides, just a few days ago you were loudly proclaiming on this board that you are not a liberal, but rather are a conservative. Remember that I asked you then to provide your conservative bonafides? So which way is it?

What kind of requirements to be a conservative do you accept? What are your conservative bonafides? I didn't know you had to be certified to be identified for and ideological standing. Or does it take just one drop of liberal blood to not be a conservative?

[jlisenbe]

Never heard of WG advocating premarital sex ever, and she has been very clear about her choices many times. She doesn't seem to be keen of those fundies though from what I've read.

I have NEVER claimed she advocates for premarital sex. However, I've asked both you and her to advocate for postponing sex until marriage. You have both repeatedly refused.

What kind of requirements to be a conservative do you accept? What are your conservative bonafides? I didn't know you had to be certified to be identified for and ideological standing. Or does it take just one drop of liberal blood to not be a conservative?

People can debate those requirements, but she claimed to be a conservative last week while self-identifying as a liberal just now. Can't have it both ways.

Wonder what kind of help that you provide? What about those Southern Baptists and Methodist church folk I've read about? Who runs the hospitals and clinics?

Of the pregnancy help centers I have heard of and participated in, I've never run across one staffed and funded by "liberal Christians". It is always evangelicals and Catholics.

She won't answer this question. Perhaps you will. "After all, if it's OK to kill them before they're born, then why not kill them after they're born, especially since they are causing so many problems?" It's a perplexing question for me. If it's morally wrong to kill children, and I certainly think it is, then why is is not equally wrong to kill a child before it is born? And please don't go down the old, worn out road of, "Yeah, but you conservatives don't want to take care of children with welfare."

[jlisenbe]

Oh well. It seems to be the question that no one ever cares to answer. " If it's morally wrong to kill children, and I certainly think it is, then why is is not equally wrong to kill a child before it is born?"

[tomder55]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZbDg24dfN0

[talaniman]

I have NEVER claimed she advocates for premarital sex. However, I've asked both you and her to advocate for postponing sex until marriage. You have both repeatedly refused.

People can debate those requirements, but she claimed to be a conservative last week while self-identifying as a liberal just now. Can't have it both ways.

Of the pregnancy help centers I have heard of and participated in, I've never run across one staffed and funded by "liberal Christians". It is always evangelicals and Catholics.

She won't answer this question. Perhaps you will. "After all, if it's OK to kill them before they're born, then why not kill them after they're born, especially since they are causing so many problems?" It's a perplexing question for me. If it's morally wrong to kill children, and I certainly think it is, then why is is not equally wrong to kill a child before it is born? And please don't go down the old, worn out road of, "Yeah, but you conservatives don't want to take care of children with welfare."

I've answered your question many times but it's up to you to accept it, agree or disagree or even dismiss it. It's quite redundant and rhetorical for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZbDg24dfN0

Anything that breaks our dependence on other nations for our crucial supplies are a good thing.

[jlisenbe]

I've answered your question many times but it's up to you to accept it, agree or disagree or even dismiss it. It's quite redundant and rhetorical for sure.

You've answered this question? "If it's morally wrong to kill children, and I certainly think it is, then why is is not equally wrong to kill a child before it is born?" When did you do that?

Anything that beaks our dependence on other nations for our crucial supplies are a good thing.

Yes and yes!

[talaniman]

You've answered this question? "If it's morally wrong to kill children, and I certainly think it is, then why is is not equally wrong to kill a child before it is born?" When did you do that?

LOL we post so much in these forums I can forgive an old coot like yourself for not remembering stuff. This is America and while we are entitled to our beliefs and individual morality, the law prevails and so it's a simple matter to follow the law. So what does the law say about abortions and killing a child that's been born?

I understand you start a child at conception, and many others don't, so there you go back to the LAW of the land.

[jlisenbe]

LOL we post so much in these forums I can forgive an old coot like yourself for not remembering stuff. This is America and while we are entitled to our beliefs and individual morality, the law prevails and so it's a simple matter to follow the law. So what does the law say about abortions and killing a child that's been born?

Thank you for your non-answer. I find that liberal dems will absolutely run away from that question. They know there is really no acceptable answer to it, and that being the case, it bothers their consciences. "If it's morally wrong to kill children, then why is is not equally wrong to kill a child before it is born?" You and I both know that an appeal to the law is not the same as an appeal to moral values. I'm really disappointed when people do not want to engage in genuine discussion.

[Wondergirl]

I have NEVER claimed she advocates for premarital sex. However, I've asked both you and her to advocate for postponing sex until marriage. You have both repeatedly refused.

I haven't refused; I just haven't responded to that gotcha question.

People can debate those requirements, but she claimed to be a conservative last week while self-identifying as a liberal just now. Can't have it both ways.

I grew up liking Ike and registered as Republican. I still am one, though a moderate one who looks at each candidate as an individual and votes accordingly, not blindly for the party.

She won't answer this question. Perhaps you will. "After all, if it's OK to kill them before they're born, then why not kill them after they're born, especially since they are causing so many problems?" It's a perplexing question for me. If it's morally wrong to kill children, and I certainly think it is, then why is is not equally wrong to kill a child before it is born? And please don't go down the old, worn out road of, "Yeah, but you conservatives don't want to take care of children with welfare."

Yes, she'll answer this with a question. Why do conservatives wait to kill that child AFTER it's born?

[talaniman]

Thank you for your non-answer. I find that liberal dems will absolutely run away from that question. They know there is really no acceptable answer to it, and that being the case, it bothers their consciences. "If it's morally wrong to kill children, then why is is not equally wrong to kill a child before it is born?" You and I both know that an appeal to the law is not the same as an appeal to moral values. I'm really disappointed when people do not want to engage in genuine discussion.

I didn't think you would understand my response, being the judgmental hard core right winger that you are who sees his moral values as higher than anyone else's. It's not even a genuine discussion but a set up to elevate yourself by putting others down. Nothing new as we have played that song before so many times and no doubt you knew my position well before you asked the question.

By now I figured you had gleaned from my responses that while I understand your position, it matters little to my own. I engage just for the discussion and get insights into the positions of others.

[jlisenbe]

I haven't refused; I just haven't responded to that gotcha question.

How sad that you consider such a serious question to be so trivial. It seems to be the condition of our day, that people do not want to think through serious issues, but rather prefer to just blow it off as a "gotcha question". Well, the question still stands, and it stands unanswered because, truthfully, there is no answer acceptable to abortion supporters.

I still am one, though a moderate one

First you were a conservative. Yesterday you were a liberal. Now you are a moderate. How confused you seem to be.

Why do conservatives wait to kill that child AFTER it's born?

Nothing more than an outrageous accusation designed to placate the conscience of a supporter of abortion.

I didn't think you would understand my response, being the judgmental hard core right winger that you are who sees his moral values as higher than anyone else's. It's not even a genuine discussion but a set up to elevate yourself by putting others down. Nothing new as we have played that song before so many times and no doubt you knew my position well before you asked the question.

By now I figured you had gleaned from my responses that while I understand your position, it matters little to my own. I engage just for the discussion and get insights into the positions of others.

So you have no answer, and yet that's my fault as a "judgmental hard core right winger". Wow. When you have no answers, you always resort to name calling. It's not my fault that you support the killing of unborn children. You'll have to deal with that yourself.