[paraclete]

Labour is not cheap everywhere, and when the backpackers flee home we may have to innovate and you will benefit

[talaniman]

yes haven't figured out how to use robotics to pick certain produce yet. Cheap illegal labor disincentives the need for the innovation .

That and the costs of the innovative new machinery, often only available through a loan lease agreement. The whole process of retraining may take years and money, and even generations to achieve, and the First Bush certainly was the one who predicted and pushed the new world order Tom, which in many ways we have seen this affect our economy in some very profound ways much like your blacksmith adapting to autos. Cheap labor moved many innovations to other countries, and I doubt small farmers with no other viable options care if that labor is illegal or not. Try telling your kids of the many job opportunities their are to work in the fresh air and pick strawberries and potatoes, or whatever they cannot have a machine do.

Let me know what they tell you.

[jlisenbe]

It never ceases to amaze me to hear that farmers must use illegal labor to do jobs Americans won't do. That's being said when there are still Americans sitting on their duffs drawing welfare. Why not tell them to go pick strawberries? I guess it's just a lot easier to go out and borrow money. Try telling your kids to go pick strawberries? In the Great Depression, there would have been thousands of Americans heading that way to pick produce. They would have done so since picking produce is much better than being hungry. We have become such a soft country. Why not tell your kids to do what they need to do to take care of themselves rather than depending on someone else? Wouldn't that be a lot better than telling your grandchildren to get ready to be buried in a national debt caused by our unwillingness to simply pay for what we want?

[talaniman]

Americans today don't sit on their duffs just collecting welfare...they must meet state requirements to even get assistance. That pretty much blows the premise for most of your argument out of the water. Even if we got a bunch of Americans to pick strawberries, or made those farmers pay the minimum wage you think those American strawberry pickers wouldn't need assistance from the state to survive?

[jlisenbe]

Americans today don't sit on their duffs just collecting welfare...they must meet state requirements to even get assistance. That pretty much blows the premise for most of your argument out of the water

Prepare to be faced with (for you) an unpleasant truth.

https://medium.com/2016-index-of-culture-and-opportunity/most-work-eligible-welfare-recipients-are-not-working-17d0004523b

Even if we got a bunch of Americans to pick strawberries, or made those farmers pay the minimum wage you think those American strawberry pickers wouldn't need assistance from the state to survive?

And again, prepare for the truth. According to the National Geographic, "Farm employers reported paying their hired, seasonal harvest workers—the folks picking and sorting everything from grapes to peaches to tomatoes—an average wage of $10.19 an hour in 2010. " And that stat is 10 years old, so you know it is higher now!! My friend, you must stop drinking all of that liberal kool aid.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/c...rs-more/#close

http://www.eatingwell.com/article/29...ing-in-fields/

[tomder55]

The whole process of retraining may take years and money, and even generations to achieve,

nonsense . I have had to learn 3 different operating system in my 30 years on this job. It took a matter of a few weeks .

and I doubt small farmers with no other viable options care if that labor is illegal or not. Try telling your kids of the many job opportunities their are to work in the fresh air and pick
strawberries and potatoes, or whatever they cannot have a machine do.

you think it is the small farmer hiring illegal cheap labor ? Nah ;

big agribusinesses does the most hiring of illegals .

[talaniman]

Prepare to be faced with (for you) an unpleasant truth.

https://medium.com/2016-index-of-culture-and-opportunity/most-work-eligible-welfare-recipients-are-not-working-17d0004523b

And again, prepare for the truth. According to the National Geographic, "Farm employers reported paying their hired, seasonal harvest workers—the folks picking and sorting everything from grapes to peaches to tomatoes—an average wage of $10.19 an hour in 2010. " And that stat is 10 years old, so you know it is higher now!! My friend, you must stop drinking all of that liberal kool aid.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/c...rs-more/#close

http://www.eatingwell.com/article/29...ing-in-fields/

Sorry could access the NG link, but I will use this one for a farm worker pay scale which is experienced based it seems and for a person starting off you will be part of the working poor and on assistance. So I'll stick with my original statement.

Your last link makes the case for that long put off immigration policy. The farmers would appreciate it. I know you aren't proposing forced farm labor for welfare recipients are you, or forcing poor people to move the farms? That NJ poor person has no resources for such migration without some assistance.

Surely you see and understand the complications in such an idea don't you?

[talaniman]

nonsense . I have had to learn 3 different operating system in my 30 years on this job. It took a matter of a few weeks .

All you needed was those weeks of brush up instruction as you had previous experience, but that 50 year old miner may need a lot more than a few weeks to master a different OS. A fresh college grad may need just a general instruction if I may present a more realistic view across the board and not to minimize your own experience either. My company sent me to school too, back in the day, but it wasn't for a few weeks but 4 years.

you think it is the small farmer hiring illegal cheap labor ? Nah ;big agribusinesses does the most hiring of illegals .

What large corporations want cheap labor too? Who would have thunk that? My whole point is that Big Biz has moved new technology and whole factories over seas, and left us with a service economy rather than the industrial based one we had decades ago.

[Wondergirl]

Prepare to be faced with (for you) an unpleasant truth.

https://medium.com/2016-index-of-culture-and-opportunity/most-work-eligible-welfare-recipients-are-not-working-17d0004523b

And again, prepare for the truth. According to the National Geographic, "Farm employers reported paying their hired, seasonal harvest workers—the folks picking and sorting everything from grapes to peaches to tomatoes—an average wage of $10.19 an hour in 2010. " And that stat is 10 years old, so you know it is higher now!! My friend, you must stop drinking all of that liberal kool aid.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/c...rs-more/#close

http://www.eatingwell.com/article/29...ing-in-fields/

The main word in all that is "seasonal." When the season ends, then what?

[jlisenbe]

Your last link makes the case for that long put off immigration policy. The farmers would appreciate it. I know you aren't proposing forced farm labor for welfare recipients are you, or forcing poor people to move the farms? That NJ poor person has no resources for such migration without some assistance.

I'm all for immigration reform. I'm not in favor of forcing people to work, and I'm not in favor of forcing people who do work to support those who won't.

Surely you see and understand the complications in such an idea don't you?

In the idea of people working and supporting themselves??? Really?

The main word in all that is "seasonal." When the season ends, then what?

Then they need to find something else to do, just like those who already do this kind of work do. They need to do what they have to do to support themselves. It's not a really complicated idea.

You do realize the article was about farmers being unable to find enough workers to harvest the crops? We have people drawing welfare, and they can't find laborers. Hmmm. That seems awfully strange.

[talaniman]

I'm all for immigration reform. I'm not in favor of forcing people to work, and I'm not in favor of forcing people who do work to support those who won't.

In theory we don't since those numbers, which are really hard to verify, represent the smallest number of people in our population unless you have those on hand. Be glad to see them. Big difference I think though between those that don't want to work, and those that cannot.

"Surely you see and understand the complications in such an idea don't you? "

In the idea of people working and supporting themselves??? Really?

The idea is an easy one but in real life it's complicated. Just getting one prepared to work can be a logistics nightmare.

Then they need to find something else to do, just like those who already do this kind of work do. They need to do what they have to do to support themselves. It's not a really complicated idea. [/QUOTE]

Seasonal workers often return home and do other work.

You do realize the article was about farmers being unable to find enough workers to harvest the crops? We have people drawing welfare, and they can't find laborers. Hmmm. That seems awfully strange.

Strange that people don't want to leave family and cities to work on a farm? What's strange about that? What's strange about a migrant seasonal worker skipping places that they might get screwed by the law?

[jlisenbe]

In theory we don't since those numbers, which are really hard to verify, represent the smallest number of people in our population unless you have those on hand. Be glad to see them. Big difference I think though between those that don't want to work, and those that cannot.

How do you know it represents such a small number? Yes, those who cannot work are a different case, but I assure you there are many people just in my area here who find it easier and more convenient to sit on their duffs and collect a check.

The idea is an easy one but in real life it's complicated. Just getting one prepared to work can be a logistics nightmare.

Getting prepared to pick strawberries is a logistics nightmare? Mexicans sneak in illegally and manage to get to the fields to work. The "logistics nightmare" doesn't seem to apply to those who do want to work.

Strange that people don't want to leave family and cities to work on a farm? What's strange about that? What's strange about a migrant seasonal worker skipping places that they might get screwed by the law?

No one said that was strange. Read more carefully. The strange part is that we are paying people not to work while farmers cannot get enough workers. Yes, that is REALLY strange. Strange and disgusting both.

[Wondergirl]

Then they need to find something else to do, just like those who already do this kind of work do. They need to do what they have to do to support themselves. It's not a really complicated idea.

I grew up in a farm and orchard community. When the harvest was finished, there were no other jobs available.

You do realize the article was about farmers being unable to find enough workers to harvest the crops? We have people drawing welfare, and they can't find laborers. Hmmm. That seems awfully strange.

Those farmers live where. And those people drawing welfare live where?

[jlisenbe]

I grew up in a farm and orchard community. When the harvest was finished, there were no other jobs available.

Things have changed in the intervening...uhm, decades. There are crops to be gathered most of the time of the year.

Those farmers live where. And those people drawing welfare live where?

There is this concept of going to where the jobs are. It's well known in most places. Mexicans WALK across hundreds of miles to do it. Amazing. To keep people on welfare when it is strictly a dead-end road is terrible. It is doing them a disservice.

[Wondergirl]

Things have changed in the intervening...uhm, decades. There are crops to be gathered most of the time of the year.

What other jobs are available now, young sir? Harvests take place in various parts of the country at different times of the year. How will someone travel and not use up his earnings?

There is this concept of going to where the jobs are. It's well known in most places. Mexicans WALK across hundreds of miles to do it. Amazing. To keep people on welfare when it is strictly a dead-end road is terrible. It is doing them a disservice.

I'm sure the welfare recipients in NYC will happily walk to the Finger Lakes to pick grapes and up to the lakeshore to pick cherries and apples. Just like you would if you were in that situation.

[talaniman]

How do you know it represents such a small number? Yes, those who cannot work are a different case, but I assure you there are many people just in my area here who find it easier and more convenient to sit on their duffs and collect a check.

Getting prepared to pick strawberries is a logistics nightmare? Mexicans sneak in illegally and manage to get to the fields to work. The "logistics nightmare" doesn't seem to apply to those who do want to work.

No one said that was strange. Read more carefully. The strange part is that we are paying people not to work while farmers cannot get enough workers. Yes, that is REALLY strange. Strange and disgusting both.

1)Do the lazy bums you know of in your area represent a large number, or just a few?

2)I was speaking in broader terms than just strawberry pickers and referring to Americans in general. Like those city dwellers who ain't moving for field work.

3)You are mixing two different subjects together and the solution to one is not a solution to both. Unless you find it equally strange we don't force or require those lazy people to work for those farmers. Now unless you are more specific, am I wrong for thinking it strange that farmers can't find workers, when your article explains why to a great extent? Why do you think people get paid not to work since that would require a waiver for good reasons for that to happen?

Methinks I was right about the complications of us humans in such regard, and await your rebuttal to this and other STRANGE logistical nightmares.

Things have changed in the intervening...uhm, decades. There are crops to be gathered most of the time of the year.

There is this concept of going to where the jobs are. It's well known in most places. Mexicans WALK across hundreds of miles to do it. Amazing. To keep people on welfare when it is strictly a dead-end road is terrible. It is doing them a disservice.

Mexicans ain't dumb enough to go where the law will roust them and deport them for walking across that line for a few bucks. They want to work, which is why they take the chances they do as it is. They would probably sign up legally if you let 'em.

You do the working poor a disservice calling them lazy because they need assistance. While it may apply to a few you know, you cannot assign it to those you don't.

[paraclete]

You could try agricultural visas ( the imported slave labour solution) where the workers are allowed in short term and must return home after the season

[jlisenbe]

Like those city dwellers who ain't moving for field work.

That's fine by me. We just shouldn't force other working Americans to support them. If they want to be hungry in Chicago, then that's their choice.

3)You are mixing two different subjects together and the solution to one is not a solution to both. Unless you find it equally strange we don't force or require those lazy people to work for those farmers. Now unless you are more specific, am I wrong for thinking it strange that farmers can't find workers, when your article explains why to a great extent? Why do you think people get paid not to work since that would require a waiver for good reasons for that to happen?

Methinks I was right about the complications of us humans in such regard, and await your rebuttal to this and other STRANGE logistical nightmares.

Complete nonsense. As long as illegals somehow find a way to get in here and get to the work, then your "logistical nightmares" comment is foolishness.

They want to work, which is why they take the chances they do as it is.

Thank you for providing the answer to the entire dilemma.

They would probably sign up legally if you let 'em.

I'm not stopping anyone.

You do the working poor a disservice calling them lazy because they need assistance. While it may apply to a few you know, you cannot assign it to those you don't.

I haven't called anyone lazy. I have pointed out that there are Americans sitting around doing nothing when jobs are available.

[jlisenbe]

What other jobs are available now, young sir? Harvests take place in various parts of the country at different times of the year. How will someone travel and not use up his earnings?

Plenty of harvesting going on in Florida and Cally. Young sir? I am flattered!

I'm sure the welfare recipients in NYC will happily walk to the Finger Lakes to pick grapes and up to the lakeshore to pick cherries and apples. Just like you would if you were in that situation.

That's what buses are for. Good grief you must think those people are all barnyard stupid. When they want to go somewhere, they find a way. When I was in that situation? When I was teaching school, I worked at Walmart evenings and weekends to make ends meet. I've mowed yards, bagged groceries, worked at a sawmill, and hauled furniture in my lifetime and never thought anything of it, so don't talk to me about if I was "in that situation". You picked the wrong person for that liberal rhetoric.

Right now anyone who is willing to work can make a ton of money in oilfields, and you don't need to know much to start other than how to work hard and show up on time. Had a friend who did it. Wasn't fun up in ND in the winter, but he did it.

[talaniman]

That's fine by me. We just shouldn't force other working Americans to support them. If they want to be hungry in Chicago, then that's their choice.

Complete nonsense. As long as illegals somehow find a way to get in here and get to the work, then your "logistical nightmares" comment is foolishness.

Thank you for providing the answer to the entire dilemma.

I'm not stopping anyone.

I haven't called anyone lazy. I have pointed out that there are Americans sitting around doing nothing when jobs are available.

1) You aren't being forced since you agreed to obey the law as an American citizen. Don't like the laws, change them LAWFULLY.

2)You under estimate they hardships they endure for a few bucks yet they still come for work despite the dangers.

3)You're welcome, but it's just insights and observations as the solution is obviously a better system.

4)Not you personally maybe, but the system does or tries to.

5)Maybe the jobs aren't where they are sitting and they have no money or support to make a move, even though some have. Not everyone has the same ability, or aptitude.