[talaniman]

Bernie wins again. South Carolina is next!

[jlisenbe]

[Vacuum7]

Lower wages for the lower echelon workers equates to lower wages for the Middle Class, as well. This is the problem with any country that suffers an influx of undocumented workers, for example....and this is viewed only because it demonstrates the effect more easily because it could just be many low end paying jobs by documented workers, too: If the low end workers pay dips ever lower, the downward pull of these wages will decrease the wages of Middle Class workers....only the high end wage earners on the scale will be insulated from the wage assault.

[jlisenbe]

Vac, I think you are off center on that one. Lower wage workers are not competing for the same jobs as middle income individuals. Besides, as we have discussed here about 93 times, if median income is rising, and it is, then that can only happen if lower to middle income workers are making more money.

[paraclete]

Vac, I think you are off center on that one. Lower wage workers are not competing for the same jobs as middle income individuals. Besides, as we have discussed here about 93 times, if median income is rising, and it is, then that can only happen if lower to middle income workers are making more money.

No it has to do with how many incomes are in that middle bracket and not about how many people are in the series, so if you have a streaching effect where there are more high income individuals and more low income individuals the growth in middle income affects the series without indicating that lower incomesa are improving

[jlisenbe]

No it has to do with how many incomes are in that middle bracket and not about how many people are in the series

The number of people in the series can certainly affect the median. If you add a lot towards the bottom of the range, then the income figure at the median automatically drops. If you add a lot towards the top of the range, then it rises. There is no "middle bracket" for median income. There is one income at the very center of the group. If you have 1,001 people, then the 501st person is the median giving you 500 below and 500 above. If you add one hundred towards the bottom (or anywhere for that matter), then the total figure rises to 1,101 and the 551st person is the median.

"Median income is the amount that divides the income distribution into two equal groups, half having income above that amount, and half having income below that amount. Mean income (average) is the amount obtained by dividing the total aggregate income of a group by the number of units in that group. Mode income is the most frequently occurring income in a given income distribution."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income

[paraclete]

you need more than a rudimentary understanding of statistics to understand these figures. Knowing the middle figure means nothing other than it approximates the average sometimes

[jlisenbe]

you need more than a rudimentary understanding of statistics to understand these figures. Knowing the middle figure means nothing other than it approximates the average sometimes

Well, it would help to at least have that rudimentary understanding of stats. Based on your previous comments, I don't think you have that. This statement, " it approximates the average sometimes," means basically nothing. How more vague a statement could you have made? "It approximates the average sometimes??" It's the equivalent of saying that every once in a while the median approximates the mean. It's meaningless.

Median income is a very useful stat. When it goes up, it is good news.

[paraclete]

Median income is a very useful stat. When it goes up, it is good news.

It is a trailing indicator at best which means that if it rises any "good news" was some time ago, it is only good news to politicians like trump who can shout about their success however vague the connection maybe

[jlisenbe]

It is a trailing indicator at best which means that if it rises any "good news" was some time ago

A trailing indicator? So is GDP growth. So are unemployment figures. So are inflation figures. It's a silly objection. No one says, "Unemployment is down, but let's all be sad and somber because, after all, it's a trailing indicator."

It is good news to everyone other than those who don't want Trump to get any credit for an economy which is breaking records. I'm not a Trump fan, but truth is truth.

[paraclete]

truth is truth.

Don't do a Pilate on me, which truth, the truth according to Trump or the truth according to the demonrats. One says everything thing is getting better, the other says things are worse

[Vacuum7]

If you add more to the lower income population, the Median Income goes down and the average income goes down: this is meaningless to any group other than the lower income group. The Middle Class gets zapped when the lowest earners population grows because of the Tax Structure architecture: The Middle Class ends up paying for the tax deficiency of the lower income wage earners, effectively robbing their earnings.

[paraclete]

If you add more to the lower income population, the Median Income goes down and the average income goes down: this is meaningless to any group other than the lower income group. The Middle Class gets zapped when the lowest earners population grows because of the Tax Structure architecture: The Middle Class ends up paying for the tax deficiency of the lower income wage earners, effectively robbing their earnings.

You need to learn the reality that taxing low income earners is a zero sum game, we learned that lesson and our economy hasn't suffered, if you lower taxes on the middle classes you fuel the economy and the rich don't need tax breaks so close the loop holes

[Vacuum7]

Paraclete: That is what I said! We're saying the same thing: Crushing the Middle Class with taxes to make up for the deficit of tax revenues on the lower wage earners is a LOSING PROPOSITION! Communism attacks the Middle Class with intent to destroy it: This is what we have been witnessing in this country the last 50 years. When Trump's tax plans took effect, I ended up paying MORE TAXES THAN I HAD EVER PAID IN MY LIFE! They were advertised as being good for the Middle Class but they have proven anything but good!

[paraclete]

you are in the wrong class

[jlisenbe]

We're saying the same thing: Crushing the Middle Class with taxes to make up for the deficit of tax revenues on the lower wage earners is a LOSING PROPOSITION!

The top 20% of income earners in the United States pay over 85% of the income tax. In what way are we "crushing the middle class"?

Don't do a Pilate on me, which truth, the truth according to Trump or the truth according to the demonrats. One says everything thing is getting better, the other says things are worse

Which is why I don't make an appeal to dems or repubs. Stats are not swayed by political beliefs.

[jlisenbe]

Income Level	Top 1%	Top 5%	Top 10%
Percentage of Total Tax Revenue	39.40%	59.90%	70.80%

Income Level	Top 1%	Top 5%	Top 10%	Top 25%	Top 50%	Bottom 50%
Percentage of Total Tax Revenue	39.40%	59.90%	70.80%	86.70%	97.20%	2.70%
Average Tax Rate	27.10%	23.60%	21.20%	17.80%	15.50%	3.40%

https://www.lombardiletter.com/top-2...ent-tax/20757/

[paraclete]

which proves you forgo nothing by removing taxes on the lower 50%, but the answer to both lower taxes and a balanced budget is reduced expenditure

[jlisenbe]

which proves you forgo nothing by removing taxes on the lower 50%, but the answer to both lower taxes and a balanced budget is reduced expenditure

Exactly correct. In fact there is no conceivable level of taxation that will raise an extra tril of revenue without wrecking the economy. We are not on a good course.

[talaniman]

If all those taxes are paid by the upper classes why do we run a defict every year except under Clinton who cut military spending and raised taxes. Obviously taxing the rich ain't enough, and cutting their taxes is even worse fiscally, because it added to the deficit, and who else can afford to be taxed more? Like Clete says we have a lot of cutting to do to balance a budget, and I doubt ordinary paycheck to paycheck folks especially with kids are going to vote for that. Sure your median income stat makes you feel better, shows progress right? Slow and steady! It's been explained that those high end taxpayers 12%% tax reduction can mean millions and billions right now and yours and poor people's are measured in thousands and hundreds.

Only in your weird math world do we enrich the already rich at the expense of everybody else who ain't rich. I mean duh! Can't you see how that hollows out the middle class? Of course you don't, so why grab a position you don't seem to know much about or understand very well? I mean in our consumer driven economy buying stuff moves it along, and circulates the money, and no matter how much you give rich folks they don't do either. They don't build roads, schools, or bridges! The hoard the money they get for NOT working and hide it for their kids or foundations and cry my taxes are to high give me a cut!

Who listens when you holler? You of all people should know how hard it is to get in and stay in the middle class, and you seem to have forgotten that struggle.

Exactly correct. In fact there is no conceivable level of taxation that will raise an extra tril of revenue without wrecking the economy. We are not on a good course.

So are you admitting the tax cuts made permanent were not a good idea since the middle class tax cuts are set to expire very soon? All on the credit card I might add.