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    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #81

    Feb 18, 2020, 06:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I never cease to be amazed at where your liberal orthodoxy takes you.
    It's not anything liberal; it's from personal experience.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #82

    Feb 18, 2020, 06:36 PM
    Back to the OP....

    Tomorrow evening's debate will be interesting if Bloomberg is part of it.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #83

    Feb 18, 2020, 07:00 PM
    It's liberal.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #84

    Feb 18, 2020, 07:52 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    It's liberal.
    If you're talking about me, I have been surrounded by conservatives since birth -- through all my schooling, by my church, by family of origin and in laws, by the communities I have lived in. If I'm liberal, it's because I've taken Micah 6:8 and the words of Jesus into my heart and as the reason for my actions.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #85

    Feb 18, 2020, 08:09 PM
    In all honesty, two things jump out of this discussion that could use more exploring: 1) As Athos pointed out, "the average white cop conditioned by media to see Blacks as criminals" and 2) Compensation for Policemen.

    The MEDIA not only lies about people of points of view other than their own, they also lie about minorities, in this case Blacks, to the point that they have tainted Law Enforcement against Blacks....this makes me want to blame the MEDIA more than blame the Police for their occasions of bad behavior.

    Nobody has talked about Police Compensation/pay: By and large, you get what you pay for in this world. You want a good education at a major university, you pay through the nose....you want quality teachers, you have to pay them decent wages....you want a great chef at a major restaurant, get ready to pay him.....you want good politicians, get ready to pay them (wow, we may be paying them too much, bad example!)…..Policemen are no different: How are you going to attract "the best and brightest" Police Officers when their pay is not competitive with other disciplines? You want super cops but pay them like they are burger flippers! Soldiers get Combat Pay for being IN THEATER in combat zones: Generally speaking, a lot of Police Officers are walking into COMBAT ZONES every day in the U.S., and I am not exaggerating much, if at all! How are we compensating these people who stick their necks in the noose for our safety? Do we really appreciate the risks that our L.E.O.s take every day in the name of upholding the law? I wonder if can even conceive of what they go through. This may come as a shock BUT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE, it takes someone with no better than an AVERAGE IQ to put up with PUTTING EVERYTHING HE HAS AND EVERYTHING HE EVER IS GOING TO HAVE on the line each and every day! DO YOU HONESTLY THINK A SMART MAN WOULD RISK HIS LIFE EVERY DAY FOR MINIMAL PAY, DAY-IN AND DAY-OUT, ONLY TO BE SECOND GUESSED AND RIDICULED BY THOSE HE IS SWORN TO PROTECT? Aren't we asking a little much? Cops are humans, too: Every man has a breaking point when exposed to prolonged periods of combat...99.8% of the men in this world will break at some point in combat, time is the deciding element.....the 0.2% that do not break are psychologically unstable human beings.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #86

    Feb 18, 2020, 08:27 PM
    So I see your argument but to extend it; to get a great president you would need to pay a billion dollars, no, that won't work, you already have one who has a billion dollars. many of your politicians are millionaires, hasn't bred a better politician. No, you need to return to the Roman times when politicians served without pay, it was a position provided by their circumstance and civic duty
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #87

    Feb 19, 2020, 05:07 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    If someone says they are not above average, then that person is contradicting the article, and not me. I still find your utter disrespect of the police to be appalling. I never cease to be amazed at where your liberal orthodoxy takes you.
    I never cease to be amazed at your constant game of semantics to obscure your errors. I am appalled.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #88

    Feb 19, 2020, 05:08 AM
    Vac that was an interesting enough summation that I looked it up and depending on areas they get paid rather well, but as you say is it enough to really compensate them for the rigors of the work? Another part of this whole thing is we should not judge the actions of a few with a broad brush of all of them. Not ALL cops are scary racist arseholes and it doesn't take but a very few to make BIG headlines, and traffic stops may not be completely about just race, but quotas as well, so in all honesty the problems with minorities and cops can be lethal, but for many different reasons in different places. One of the most infuriating things for minorities which adds to the mistrust is the wholesale covering up of bad cops doing really bad stuff. The fact that they so blatantly get away with it is the cause of much concern over years. Policies also like stop and frisk, not new and a practice in many places before NY for years helps NOTHING, nor profiling practices, all done for years and decades, starts at the TOP of the chain, and has not served their communities well at all.

    Sometimes those things get lost in the discussion and makes all those personal anecdotes of individuals and their bad experience take on a bigger role than otherwise they would along with the new phenomenon of cell phone videos of cops doing bad stuff making an already bad situation even worse and communities and good cops who are silent to bad policy and practice are all victims of a sometimes inadequate system and the people that make it so. It helps nothing when white people call a cop on a minority minding his own business in there establishment, and the cop handles those situations badly but it adds much to an already growing resentment by minorities and even people who are not giving more fuel to the fires of racial inequality and treatment. There's enough blame to go around for sure, but lets not pretend that it doesn't happen or disregard the need to change it.

    I think I've had my fill of this respect the bad cops, when the evidence says they should not even be cops. At least don't send the SOB's to my neighborhood. That would at least start the healing and maybe the good cops wouldn't be targets and have to die at the hands of those that hate them for what has been systematically done by bad cops and the policies of the powers that be.

    Very grateful though to this forum for respecting the need to talk about race in an open way and thanks for listening white peoples. Sometimes listening is all you have to do since that's where understanding begins.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #89

    Feb 19, 2020, 05:36 AM
    V7 - compensation comes in many forms,. not just dollars. The mindset of an ordinary guy who is given a gun, a badge, and a uniform is heady stuff. The cop doesn't think of himself as a person who "protects and serves", but rather as a guy whose word is law and citizens better obey in any confrontation.

    Then there are the temptations which lead to corruption, especially in the large urban areas. Drug payoffs, for example, are enormous and the good cop who sees this is faced with the Blue Wall of Silence. Even the top cops can be corrupted - see Bernie Kerik, past PC of New York City.

    There's something inherently dangerous in being a policeman. Too much power for one individual. Fair trials for bad cops would be a step in the right direction - not "I feared for my life" as a defense that juries buy when the cop is clearly shown shooting a suspect in the back as he is running away. Video cameras should record every single police stop.
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    #90

    Feb 19, 2020, 02:07 PM
    Athos: In the area I live, a large portion of the Law Enforcement personnel are Ex-Military....and it is pretty obvious from their hair cuts to the way that they carry themselves. I sincerely believe that the Military background in the Police Forces is a big plus, not only from the discipline portion of it but, also, from the psychological part of it.
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    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #91

    Feb 19, 2020, 02:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Athos: In the area I live, a large portion of the Law Enforcement personnel are Ex-Military....and it is pretty obvious from their hair cuts to the way that they carry themselves. I sincerely believe that the Military background in the Police Forces is a big plus, not only from the discipline portion of it but, also, from the psychological part of it.
    Police Departments love to recruit ex-military. I was recruited by the LAPD when I got out. Ex-military, as good as most may be, also can bring problems to police work.

    I thought of another media thing - unlike portrayals of African-Americans, when Police are portrayed in media, they are invariably heroic, brave, honest and terrific all-around. Not to mention good-looking and the women are spectacular. This is not a criticism of media, but an important factor in how our culture looks at certain groups.
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    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #92

    Feb 19, 2020, 02:38 PM
    Athos: There is a lot of, for lack of a better word, "subliminal" messages that can be put out by MEDIA, if they so chose to take that approach, upon old John Q. Public. If we knew the real story, we would probably be shocked at how much MEDIA has influenced our thinking and actions over the years....and OUR MEDIA was hard at this a long time before the notorious "Russian Bots" were in the public purview.

    If you look at Bloomberg, now Presidential Candidate Bloomberg, he could have a very deft capacity to influence public thought given his enormous "financial network".

    Hard truth of the matter: We are being psychologically ASSAULTED on a daily basis! That's why, sometimes, you just have to turn everything off and put blinders on for a at least a few days!
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #93

    Feb 19, 2020, 05:03 PM
    nanny Bloomy is going to feel like a pinata after tonight . And it won't matter . When the Dems see their choice of a communist or Trump lite they will flock to Bloomy ....and the ones on the fence he will buy off. It is a ways off yet but look to Slim Shady Sharpton to support nanny Bloomy even though there were race tensions in his term as Mayor of NYC due to stop and frisk ;even though he squashed protests and allowed them to demonstrate behind "free speech "cages Even though homelessness began to rise on his watch.

    Well that answer is easy . Sharpton still owes $ 9 millions in unpaid taxes . Here comes nanny Bloomy on a white horse and a check book in his hand. Viola ! instant endorsement right before the NY primary !
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #94

    Feb 19, 2020, 06:38 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Athos: There is a lot of, for lack of a better word, "subliminal" messages that can be put out by MEDIA, if they so chose to take that approach, upon old John Q. Public. If we knew the real story, we would probably be shocked at how much MEDIA has influenced our thinking and actions over the years....and OUR MEDIA was hard at this a long time before the notorious "Russian Bots" were in the public purview.
    Media, including advertising, is so powerful, it doesn't need subliminal messages. Look what Goebbels did to the German people in thew 1930s. Repeat, repeat, repeat is the opposite of subliminal. Trump is a master at this. "Fake news, the Russian Hoax" - we see and hear this almost daily from Trump. He knows what he's doing. His Medal of Freedom winner Limbaugh has instructed his followers to watch only FOX-News, never the other broadcasters. Hardly "Freedom"!

    The Russian bots were smart enough to target the swing states in 2016 - Pennsylvania, Michigan etc. Someday we may learn how effective they were.

    If you look at Bloomberg, now Presidential Candidate Bloomberg, he could have a very deft capacity to influence public thought given his enormous "financial network".
    He's already doing it via enormous TV ad buys.

    Hard truth of the matter: We are being psychologically ASSAULTED on a daily basis! That's why, sometimes, you just have to turn everything off and put blinders on for a at least a few days!
    As you say, it's nothing new. Vance Packard wrote The Hidden Persuaders in the 1950s exposing how the ad companies manipulate the public - quite successfully, I might add. Yet we're still lambs led to the slaughter.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #95

    Feb 19, 2020, 07:23 PM
    Athos: I know you're right about the effectiveness of the MEDIA....I do have and opinion, though: If you "READ" and you try to balance PRINT Vs. ELECTRONIC, you might have a better chance of weeding through the garbage and not being "led down the garden path" by the pied pipers. I also think the "educated" have a better chance at navigating through all the crap that is slung from every direction...I say this but then look back at your example with Goebbles and how he conned Germany, who had a VERY educated population and STILL succumbed to the siren of der Further....that still bugs the piss out of me, don't understand it.

    Just saw a video of Goebbles talking to an American reporter and speaking to the American people, through and interpreter, in 1938: he looked like he was lying and even acted like he knew he looked like he was lying! Guy looked like a weasel!
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #96

    Feb 19, 2020, 08:10 PM
    all Nazi were weasels vac they didn't just look like them
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #97

    Feb 19, 2020, 08:42 PM
    Paraclete: Ha, ha! Great point! Truly diabolical beasts.
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    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #98

    Feb 20, 2020, 05:03 AM
    after the train wreck I still say bernie will be the candidate
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #99

    Feb 20, 2020, 05:05 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Athos: I know you're right about the effectiveness of the MEDIA....I do have and opinion, though: If you "READ" and you try to balance PRINT Vs. ELECTRONIC, you might have a better chance of weeding through the garbage...... I also think the "educated" have a better chance at navigating through all the crap that is slung from every direction...
    Absolutely true! Any educated person can "weed through the garbage" but it takes effort, and sound bites are enormously effective. The dumbing down of the nation is not a good thing. One very bad result is that it leaves the power in the hands of those who know how to manipulate.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #100

    Feb 20, 2020, 05:29 AM
    Athos: The dumbing-down of America is on full display and, I agree, its dangerous....but, perhaps, what is even more dangerous is when you COMBINE dumbing-down with ARROGANCE OF THE DUMBED-DOWN PEOPLE, a truly horrific combination! Too arrogant to realize how dumb they have become...one of my favorite movie lines: "I always knew you were a bastard....but its the "dumb bastard part" that I really have a problem with!"

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