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    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #381

    Mar 14, 2020, 03:08 AM
    No body wants to balance the budget. Clinton did it and he cut deeply into the military to do it, and since then nobody wants to do that. The repub way is cut stuff that helps citizens, but even they recognize that's not enough, and raising taxes is out of the question, so one wonders why conservatives even bother with that balance budget bull crap?

    Sell T-Bonds and shut the heck up already with that balanced budget crap.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #382

    Mar 14, 2020, 05:14 AM
    why are you worried about government largess? noone else is, is it coming out of your pocket?
    It will be someday. No nation can long survive on borrowed money. At some point inflation will go up (it always does) and when the interest on that borrowed money becomes unsustainable, we are going to have big problems. So I'll work hard to protect the futures of my children and grandchild.

    No body wants to balance the budget. Clinton did it and he cut deeply into the military to do it,
    Welfare reform was passed under Clinton and that helped in curbing spending and achieving a balanced budget. Learn your history. Besides, even if we cut ALL military spending, we would still have a 400 billion dollar deficit. So it's obvious to anyone interested in thinking even a little that cutting defense spending by itself won't even come close to balancing the budget. The problem is that we have become a lazy, stupid, careless nation and we basically don't care about tomorrow as long as we have our Little Debbie snack cakes for today. When someone who actually suggests that we "give" every adult a thousand dollars is still taken seriously, then you know we have gone over the edge. Fifty years ago he would have been denounced on all sides as a reckless, ignorant buffoon, but now he is actually listened to.

    Sell T-Bonds and shut the heck up already with that balanced budget crap.
    "Don't exercise any restraint or self-discipline. Step on the gas! Let's go over the cliff as fast as possible!"
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #383

    Mar 14, 2020, 07:05 AM
    You speak of government debts, but just as dangerous to the financial system is personal debts, and corporate debts. More dangerous is lack of access to capital which everybody faces during any economic expansion or EMERGENCIES. Maybe you should educate yourself on the bond market that extends beyond T-bills and affects liquidity in many ways be you a government, corporation, or individual. Individuals spending supports our economy making up roughly 70%, so despite the tax support of the rich for government revenues, the country relies on people for support. Just something to think about when you distribute MO'MONEY to rich folks and none to PO folks. Excluding half the population from the economy is a plan that hurts economic health and stymies growth and promotes DEBT any way you look at it.

    How one can expect to win a race on one leg is beyond me, or make a better world built on rich guys is even more bizarre.

    Welfare reform was passed under Clinton and that helped in curbing spending and achieving a balanced budget. Learn your history. Besides, even if we cut ALL military spending, we would still have a 400 billion dollar deficit. So it's obvious to anyone interested in thinking even a little that cutting defense spending by itself won't even come close to balancing the budget. The problem is that we have become a lazy, stupid, careless nation and we basically don't care about tomorrow as long as we have our Little Debbie snack cakes for today. When someone who actually suggests that we "give" every adult a thousand dollars is still taken seriously, then you know we have gone over the edge. Fifty years ago he would have been denounced on all sides as a reckless, ignorant buffoon, but now he is actually listened to.
    Consider if you will the cost shifting from the feds to the states in administering welfare and apply it to foregoing the bureaucracy of the federal welfare system and just write a free check from treasury to the states. In addition consider the great Clinton economy which started with raising taxes on mainly those rich guys which conservatives are prone to overlook, and the added benefit of NO wars sucking money up like a sponge. It worked great then, but current events call for a whole different approach and given those current events, new adjustments must be made since raising taxes is off the table, wars and conflicts run rampant, and diseases are on the front page making the economy a very fragile thing indeed.

    Write the damn check bud, or do you think all those low end wage earners can be unemployed by an economic shutdown due to disease and be okay until we recover?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #384

    Mar 14, 2020, 07:46 AM
    You speak of government debts, but just as dangerous to the financial system is personal debts, and corporate debts. More dangerous is lack of access to capital which everybody faces during any economic expansion or EMERGENCIES. Maybe you should educate yourself on the bond market that extends beyond T-bills and affects liquidity in many ways be you a government, corporation, or individual. Individuals spending supports our economy making up roughly 70%, so despite the tax support of the rich for government revenues, the country relies on people for support. Just something to think about when you distribute MO'MONEY to rich folks and none to PO folks. Excluding half the population from the economy is a plan that hurts economic health and stymies growth and promotes DEBT any way you look at it.
    Many words...no real content.

    Write the damn check bud, or do you think all those low end wage earners can be unemployed by an economic shutdown due to disease and be okay until we recover?
    That's the whole problem. No one's writing a check. It's all borrowed money. How many of those "low end wage earners" are you personally helping? How many of them are you willing to cut back your lifestyle for so you can have funds to help them? I think I know the answers to those questions.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #385

    Mar 14, 2020, 08:39 AM
    Look my friend I'm in no mood to throw rocks at you for your obvious lack of the macro economic factors that make up the economy, nor explain to you the social costs of those factors of which I speak. I'll just leave that alone until your comprehension can grow more clear and nuances are understood. Until then we just deal with it the best we can...okay.

    Sorry I meant to say throw boulders at your hard head but I guess I did chunk a rock or two your way but the intransigence of your position leaves me little choice sometimes. I was raised to believe that if you didn't understand something to ask questions, but you seldom do, choosing instead to revert to snark and insult (Rock throwing) to demean the points for whatever reason you disagree with.

    The very notion of balancing a budget, or solving a problem is just beyond the pale. How many have I helped, don't know lost count a very long time ago, and just help as I can especially if they ask. I can't just say no and walk away. If you wish to judge me for how many notches on my belt, or awards, and acclaim then so be it, since I have none of those things, nor do I accept them.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #386

    Mar 14, 2020, 08:44 AM
    Look my friend I'm in no mood to throw rocks at you for your obvious lack of the macro economic factors that make up the economy, nor explain to you the social costs of those factors of which I speak. I'll just leave that alone until your comprehension can grow more clear and nuances are understood. Until then we just deal with it the best we can...okay.
    No no. Go ahead and explain to us all those "macro economic" factors that make up the economy. Tell us all about it.

    The very notion of balancing a budget, or solving a problem is just beyond the pale.
    What? It might be to you, but the rest of us certainly understand the concept of balancing a budget or solving a problem.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #387

    Mar 14, 2020, 08:50 AM
    Do your own homework at your own pace, then we can discuss it. Let me clarify my mistatement though, "Balancing the budget, or solving a problem on the backs of the least and needy is beyond the pale!'.

    My bad.

    I will leave you with this bone to chew on though.

    AND

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wh...ode-2019-03-20
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #388

    Mar 14, 2020, 08:55 AM
    Do your own homework at your own pace, then we can discuss it.
    You'll be happy to know I have already done my homework, so we can discuss it now. As a start, explain the impact of a 23 trillion dollar national debt on our economy.

    Let me clarify my mistatement though, "Balancing the budget, or solving a problem on the backs of the least and needy is beyond the pale!'.
    You think the least and needy have problems now? You just wait and see their situation once the "Talaniman budget plan of borrow and spend" works its way out. Go check out Venezuela to see the disaster that results from such foolishness. Check out Greece. Check out South Africa and Zimbabwe.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #389

    Mar 14, 2020, 09:39 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You'll be happy to know I have already done my homework, so we can discuss it now. As a start, explain the impact of a 23 trillion dollar national debt on our economy.
    Government debt is but one leg of the economic stool, but managing that debt is the far more important part of it. More debt means bigger payments for sure even at the low interest rates. Governments ability to help the economy in a recession is severely compromised though even with the tools to mitigate those losses.

    You think the least and needy have problems now? You just wait and see their situation once the "Talaniman budget plan of borrow and spend" works its way out. Go check out Venezuela to see the disaster that results from such foolishness. Check out Greece. Check out South Africa and Zimbabwe.
    That's not my plan, just your misguided perception, as you know darn well I have said repeatedly repub deficit funded tax cuts are a HUGE mistake and no doubt will bite us. I added another link to my previous post as those predictions from a year or two ago are coming home to roost possibly sooner and heavier than we thought because of this very real health crisis.

    Borrow and spend isn't a bad thing, but the way it's managed is what's important JL, and lets face it our managers are totally incompetent, and corporate managers are greedy beyond sin. Actually I'm grateful for the discussion of this matter, and respect your perspective even if I don't always agree with it, or your rationale for your position.

    Homework NEVER stops my friend, at least in my own experience.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #390

    Mar 14, 2020, 10:05 AM
    darn well I have said repeatedly repub deficit funded tax cuts
    And you know darn well that's not true. The tax cut amounts to about 200 bil a year. The deficit is 1,000 bil. Those tax cuts did not cause this deficit. In fact, fed tax revenues have continued to rise.

    Borrow and spend isn't a bad thing, but the way it's managed is what's important JL, and lets face it our managers are totally incompetent, and corporate managers are greedy beyond sin.
    What do you mean when you say, "our managers are totally incompetent"? Which managers?

    Corporate managers of course want to increase profit. That's why they run the business.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #391

    Mar 14, 2020, 06:27 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    And you know darn well that's not true. The tax cut amounts to about 200 bil a year. The deficit is 1,000 bil. Those tax cuts did not cause this deficit. In fact, fed tax revenues have continued to rise.
    Use your logic, this tax cut added to an already high debt, didn't it, accumulated over years and many administrations for whatever the reason. While revenues are up now, mostly because the economy is good, and low unemployment, and all is well, this health crisis is definitely a contractionary force, exacerbated by trade wars, oil wars, and CORPORATE DEBTS, exposing weaknesses in the economy that cannot be mitigated with just lowering already low interest rates, that you cannot just cut your way out of. Simply put the reduced revenues globally, and nationally from interrupted economic activity doesn't bode well for the debt of which even after tax cuts will destroy those revenue streams already established, and back to the bank we go for MO'Money, more debt. As you said we cannot tax our way out of it, nor can we cut our way out of it.

    What do you mean when you say, "our managers are totally incompetent"? Which managers?
    Letting corporations through lobbyist, write your regulations and laws that benefit them is a sign of incompetence.

    Corporate managers of course want to increase profit. That's why they run the business.
    You read the links(?), you think selling junk bonds to raise capital for investment is a good idea? you learned nothing from past bubbles when the burst did you?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #392

    Mar 14, 2020, 06:59 PM
    Use your logic, this tax cut added to an already high debt, didn't it, accumulated over years and many administrations for whatever the reason. While revenues are up now, mostly because the economy is good, and low unemployment, and all is well, this health crisis is definitely a contractionary force, exacerbated by trade wars, oil wars, and CORPORATE DEBTS,
    You were actually doing fairly well until you let your prejudices show through in talking about corporate debt. Specifically, which corporate debts are you talking about?
    Letting corporations through lobbyist, write your regulations and laws that benefit them is a sign of incompetence.
    If that was true, then it would be a good argument for you.

    You read the links(?), you think selling junk bonds to raise capital for investment is a good idea? you learned nothing from past bubbles when the burst did you?
    Which bubbles are you referring to which were destroyed by junk bonds?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,741, Reputation: 341
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    #393

    Mar 14, 2020, 07:58 PM
    you think selling junk bonds to raise capital for investment is a good idea?
    absolutely !!! and we can thank Michael Milken for the creation of the junk bond ;a bigger contribution to banking than the ATM .

    AMC Entertainment, Bally's Manufacturing, Barnes & Noble, Beatrice, Caesars World, Calvin Klein, Chiquita Brands Int'l, Danaher, Duracell, Filene's Basement, GAF Corp., General Host Corp., Kay Jewelers, Knoll Int'l, MCI, Mellon Bank, Philadelphia Electric, Playtex, Sunshine Mining KB Homes,
    Viacom, Time Warner, Cablevision, Telemundo , Metromedia Toys-R-Us, Mattel, Hasbro Hilton, Days Inn, Holiday Inn, MGM s: 7-11 (Southland Corp.) Circle K. Medco and Humana ,
    Uniroyal Goodrich.
    ….these are just some of the companies financed by Michael Milken .


    Safeway is a company with 200,000 employees in almost 1,800 stores Those employees can thank Milken for helping build the company that provides their paychecks. His financing was crucial to Chrysler
    Cellphones are in just about everyone's pocket today. The industry started in the early 1980s when Milken financed a small company called McCaw Cellular Communications.

    They put him away on some BS insider trading change that no one understands .Instead of having a statue of him ,he served 2 years in jail.
    Since his release from prison, Milken has funded medical research.Trump recently pardoned him .
    You tell me how new start up companies can get seed money to challenge the giants of their industry ......junk bonds baby !!! When Ted Turner had this crazy idea to show news on television 24-7 .How was that financed ?

    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #394

    Mar 15, 2020, 01:33 AM
    Well there is no arguing with conservative logic that Mo'Money is okay no matter who gets screwed. Bilk a bunch of folks out of millions go to jail and be a hero unjustly prosecuted by Guiliani no less. I guess we should have left Berie Maddoff alone too. We know how this goes with those smart rich guys, when the economy is great they have all sorts of tricks and traps but when the economy contracts which it has been known to everything goes south and who gets holding the bag? Yup! everybody but the rich guy. Cry me a river about white collar criminals that get caught, slapped on the wrist, and keep on trucking.

    We forget about all the little guys who get laid off when the business cycle adjusts to economic situations like the current health crisis trade wars and oil wars. Glitches to them and who cares about the little guys at the low end who lose it all.

    Conservatives don't! The funny part is rich guys get all kinds of help from our government in loans and subsidies but a poor guy can barely feed his family and gets labeled a dependent of liberal programs that's a waste. Corporate welfare good, Government welfare bad!

    Of course we never discuss the unintended consequences of rich guy behavior until they tank the economy. Conservatives rail against the poor everyday, all the time.
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,741, Reputation: 341
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    #395

    Mar 15, 2020, 04:10 AM
    you would have us in a world where the only news source was NPR
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #396

    Mar 15, 2020, 05:04 AM
    Conservatives rail against the poor everyday, all the time.
    Really? Tell us when that has happened.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #397

    Mar 15, 2020, 06:06 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Really? Tell us when that has happened.
    What part of everyday is it you don't understand?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,324, Reputation: 154
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    #398

    Mar 15, 2020, 06:37 AM
    What part of everyday is it you don't understand?
    Be specific..if you can.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,250, Reputation: 10853
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    #399

    Mar 15, 2020, 06:57 AM









    See how easy it is to ignore your utterly ridicules question?
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #400

    Mar 15, 2020, 07:17 AM
    You know, all this Coronavirus crap wouldn't be happening today if not for the back and forth transit of communist Chinese and people coming and going to Red China: The price of doing business with these bastards? Financing the growth of the enemy.

    Maybe OUR greedy bastard U.S. companies that chased communist slave labor to Red China will rethink their supply chains.....but I bet their greed won't let them.

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