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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #101

    Feb 17, 2020, 06:19 PM
    You didn't ask for input. You asked me to verify your vague and data free statement.

    I still want to know what "tweaking" you have in mind for the tax code which is going to double the GDP and solve all the tax and income problems.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #102

    Feb 17, 2020, 07:36 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You didn't ask for input. You asked me to verify your vague and data free statement.

    I still want to know what "tweaking" you have in mind for the tax code which is going to double the GDP and solve all the tax and income problems.
    Just to inject some reality; a broad based consumption tax has this effect, and you accompany it with a reduction in income tax to make the pill palatable. What it does is solve the problem of fairness because everyone pays the tax, which seems a stumbling block for you when you keep harping on how unfair it is for the top 20% to pay most of the tax. This is not theory, it was done here years ago and the economy took off and the level of tax collections were unexpected. To inject fairness all sales taxes have to be absorbed in the new system and tax revenues shared equitably

    Of course, the top 20% will still pay most tax because they have greater spending ability but the tax base will be different. I cannot see it getting up there because of states rights
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #103

    Feb 18, 2020, 03:56 AM
    Almost all our states have some sort of consumption tax and an income tax already, Clete, and the ones that don't have their own taxing system that amounts to the same thing. One of the problems with the our tax system and monetary system, are the ways that anybody can get around them and escape through all sorts of loopholes to not just have some money exempted, but half a fortune goes untaxed, and the more you have the more you hide. Mostly in other countries. That doesn't help our economy, and with the landmark decision by SCOTUS that corporations are people too, there is virtually no limits to corporations and their uber rich overseers, to fund candidates that are making laws and policy friendly to maximize their bottom lines. Under such conditions it's very easy to see not just where the real untaxed money is, how it's used, and why half the country is under employed and stuck in a minimum wage that has not changed in decades, and the people stuck at that end of the economy will be there all their natural lives.

    So call me a liberal all you want but the fix has been in for so long even conservatives are so dependent on bending the knee to the one that finances their slow trickle so they can essentially reap huge profits for their own personal use. They refuse to see that their liberty and freedom has been subverted by the oligarchs that control the flow of money and the government of the people, and make the least the cause of the problems.

    No poor person has ever laid off workers, shut down factories and built new ones somewhere else, or tanked the economy. That's the exclusive domain of the uber rich and the governments they control. Even close examination of wars and trade wars is the underlying international corporate interest doing what it does to make MO'MONEY, and put profits over people and no people are exempt from being exploited for that profit.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #104

    Feb 18, 2020, 04:59 AM
    No poor person has ever built a factory here, employed many people, paid 85% of the income taxes, contributed heavily to charitable organizations, started universities, funded scholarships for needy students, paid large amounts of property taxes that funded the paving of roads and building of schools, made large purchases of consumer goods that help others have jobs, or funded the building of hospitals and clinics for the sick.


    and why half the country is under employed and stuck in a minimum wage that has not changed in decades, and the people stuck at that end of the economy will be there all their natural lives.
    Half of the country works at minimum wage? No. The correct figure is 2%, and most people START and minimum wage and then work their way up to a better position. No one is "stuck" anywhere. The woods are full of people who started small and yet ended up in a good situation. My parents were two of them. My brother in law is another, but all of them were not afraid of work.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #105

    Feb 18, 2020, 05:03 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    Almost all our states have some sort of consumption tax and an income tax already, Clete, and the ones that don't have their own taxing system that amounts to the same thing. One of the problems with the our tax system and monetary system, are the ways that anybody can get around them and escape through all sorts of loopholes to not just have some money exempted, but half a fortune goes untaxed, and the more you have the more you hide. Mostly in other countries. That doesn't help our economy, and with the landmark decision by SCOTUS that corporations are people too, there is virtually no limits to corporations and their uber rich overseers, to fund candidates that are making laws and policy friendly to maximize their bottom lines. Under such conditions it's very easy to see not just where the real untaxed money is, how it's used, and why half the country is under employed and stuck in a minimum wage that has not changed in decades, and the people stuck at that end of the economy will be there all their natural lives.
    Yes used to be a problem here so what we have is a uniform taxation system, it is the same all over the country, no states rights to get in the way, they just argue about the distribution of the revenue. You let SCOTUS screw up your system, making quasi laws
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #106

    Feb 18, 2020, 05:04 AM
    The decision on corporations was a correct one.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #107

    Feb 18, 2020, 05:13 AM
    Paraclete: In the U.S., SCOTUS makes no LAWS....SCOTUS interprets Constitution and laws.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #108

    Feb 18, 2020, 05:15 AM
    That is true in theory, but the Roe Wade decision, for example, was not based on existing law.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #109

    Feb 18, 2020, 05:55 AM
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #110

    Feb 18, 2020, 06:00 AM
    Wow! Powerful statement from Thomas Sowell!
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #111

    Feb 18, 2020, 06:20 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    No poor person has ever built a factory here, employed many people, paid 85% of the income taxes, contributed heavily to charitable organizations, started universities, funded scholarships for needy students, paid large amounts of property taxes that funded the paving of roads and building of schools, made large purchases of consumer goods that help others have jobs, or funded the building of hospitals and clinics for the sick.


    Half of the country works at minimum wage? No. The correct figure is 2%, and most people START and minimum wage and then work their way up to a better position. No one is "stuck" anywhere. The woods are full of people who started small and yet ended up in a good situation. My parents were two of them. My brother in law is another, but all of them were not afraid of work.
    You are be correct, but minimum wages at $7.25 don't tell the story of those making a buck or two more and trying to manage a family ballooning that 2% by a lot, so lets not be selective specific as it's no wonder that states raised their own minimums as referendums during the last election in effort to raise people from poverty. Yes people do move up the ladder, and even the working poor work hard to be poor, but if almost half the country work low paying jobs paying $18,000 a year, even a two job family is still POOR. Got little or nothing to do with work ethics, but of the value of ones efforts which are set by others for a profit. I often use and still do the Walmart business model of workers low wages subsidized by local government, where two people still can't afford a decent rent nor child care nor shelter, while the corporations using cheap overseas labor for products they sell Americans.

    Sure they raised wages and gave bonuses because states wrote a freaking law forcing them too, but that's after making huge profits for decades for the family. That's but ONE example of profits over people and the ones stuck in it. I feel insulted too, in that you list all the good works of corporations and degrade the poor people who CANNOT contribute to those good things, and fail to reveal the tax benefits to rich "philanthropist". Maybe you don't know but I've talked about it enough and the facts are out there, yet you still shill for the uber rich, and berate the poor as you always do.

    I just wish you would think for a minute your "they pay 85% of taxes" rant is hiding the fact that's a small part of their wealth being taxed in the first place. Those good deeds you so give them credit for are very profitable for them, or else they wouldn't do it, and don't for those that WORK for them to have that profit.

    I ask you to do the math yourself, you balked instead, returning to the same old rag on the poor and glory to the rich guy benefactors and the virtue of hard work and ignoring the ceilings they impose on people. I suppose though you can keep deluding yourself into believing your work ethic got you to a BETTER circumstance than just being poor, and entitles you to denigrate the ones that you left behind. More disgusting is how proud of yourself to do so, and so clueless as to not want to hear truth, and rock your fantasy world about how hard YOU work, and others do not!

    I suspect you NEED an excuse to be better than somebody else, and forget that could be you still stuck at the bottom of the pile. Naw you work way too hard to even consider where you came from. Indeed I think while you revel in your own righteousness you fail to see that any and all efforts to help the least is a good thing, and I say that about the rich too even if it gains them profits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Wow! Powerful statement from Thomas Sowell!
    A very achieved conservative libertarian supply sider. No surprise he would tug at your conservative hearts.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #112

    Feb 18, 2020, 07:02 AM
    almost half the country work low paying jobs paying $18,000 a year,
    Documentation?

    I just wish you would think for a minute your "they pay 85% of taxes" rant is hiding the fact that's a small part of their wealth being taxed in the first place.
    Documentation?

    Wealth is not taxed by the feds. Income is taxed. They are not the same thing.

    Those good deeds you so give them credit for are very profitable for them, or else they wouldn't do it, and don't for those that WORK for them to have that profit.
    Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Giving away millions of dollars of income to build a new building at a college is a sure way to make profit. Do you ever really think about what you say?

    I ask you to do the math yourself,
    Why don't you just get over yourself. That old fake news is getting tiresome. There was nothing to do math on, and even at that it's not my job to document your wild statements like the one about half the country making minimum wage when, in fact, it is more like 2%.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #113

    Feb 18, 2020, 07:39 AM
    I thought we don't have to document our statements even though I did, but of course you ignored or dismissed it, so as usual missing the point yet again, on purpose it seems to engage in your usual nonsense BS excuses. Even after I acknowledge you were right about 2% being paid the minimum, you failed to acknowledge the ones who make a dollar above that not being much better.

    You flunked math right? You had to because you darn sure can't do it.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #114

    Feb 18, 2020, 08:05 AM
    I thought we don't have to document our statements even though I did,
    The ole comprehension monster has reared its head again. You are supposed to document your own statements. There is no documentation above, so I'll just feel free to dismiss it.

    Flunked math? Can't do it? Aren't you the guy who magically transformed 2% of the country making minimum wage in "half of the country"? I mean two percent become 25 times greater in your system of math, but then you want to question someone else's math? Really? See why I don't trust your statements and ask for documentation?

    Of course the ones making a buck above minimum wage aren't much better off. That's kind of blindingly obvious and has not been a matter of disagreement at any time.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #115

    Feb 18, 2020, 08:24 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    The ole comprehension monster has reared its head again. You are supposed to document your own statements. There is no documentation above, so I'll just feel free to dismiss it.

    Flunked math? Can't do it? Aren't you the guy who magically transformed 2% of the country making minimum wage in "half of the country"? I mean two percent become 25 times greater in your system of math, but then you want to question someone else's math? Really? See why I don't trust your statements and ask for documentation?

    Of course the ones making a buck above minimum wage aren't much better off. That's kind of blindingly obvious and has not been a matter of disagreement at any time.
    You have proven to be the greatest ducker of truth I've ever met, so I can only conclude you have had an awful lot of practice, as well as BS word salad responses. LMAO, as I feel free to dismiss you as ridicules. Please forgive me for bullying you!
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #116

    Feb 18, 2020, 08:26 AM
    You have proven to be the greatest ducker of truth I've ever met, so I can only conclude you have had an awful lot of practice, as well as BS word salad responses. LMAO, as I feel free to dismiss you as ridicules. Please forgive me for bullying you!
    I can always tell when you're cornered. You come out swinging with the usual load of nonsense. I'll say it again. You find some data that I've presented which is wrong and we can talk about it. You fussed about the media income data but, as it turned out, it was completely accurate and you didn't understand what a "median" was and so endlessly paraded around the supposed error that (gasp!!) half the country was making below the median. Or in another case, if I have tried to say that half the country is making min wage when it's really only two percent, then we can discuss it, though to your credit you have acknowledged your mistake. Otherwise, your protests are just so much hot air.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #117

    Feb 18, 2020, 08:41 AM
    Cornered? Naw, consider it ignoring and dismissing your position as disengenuous and irrelevant, and useful for only the entertainment value of practicing my rock throwing. Excuse me as I gather more rocks.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #118

    Feb 18, 2020, 09:35 AM
    Like I said. I can always tell you're cornered when you can come up with nothing specific and end up having to refer to being disingenuous, irrelevant, and throwing rocks. Many words but no content.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,227, Reputation: 10853
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    #119

    Feb 18, 2020, 11:09 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Like I said. I can always tell you're cornered when you can come up with nothing specific and end up having to refer to being disingenuous, irrelevant, and throwing rocks. Many words but no content.
    Then take it for what it is, as a personal rebuke in which it was intended. Makes me no difference whatsoever how you take it or whatever game you think you're playing.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,303, Reputation: 154
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    #120

    Feb 18, 2020, 11:19 AM
    And again, nothing specific, but just these vague generalities about a "personal rebuke", playing games, and so forth. There is nothing specific because, as we both know, you don't have anything. If you did, you would bring it up, so I have no concern about your phony rebuke. I assure you that I am absolutely not playing games. I am dead serious and that's why I come across sometimes as abrasive. It's because these issues are important to me.

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