Ask Experts Questions for FREE Help !
Ask
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
    Ultra Member
     
    #1

    Jan 21, 2020, 05:42 PM
    Matthew 25
    (posted by jlsnbe Nov 10. I said I'd get back to him. This can be moved to Christianity if desired.)



    Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”






    The topic is “Unbelievers are condemned to eternal punishment in hell”. This is the belief of a small group of fundamentalist Christians. As promised, here is my statement in opposition to this belief.


    It is absurd on its face. The Jesus who said Love Your Enemy would hardly condemn those enemies he loved to eternal punishment in hell. Other sayings of Jesus supporting the erroneous belief are shown to be misunderstandings of one or more of the necessary conditions or mistranslations. I won't go over them again because they have been done to death in previous posts.


    Matthew 25. The relevant portion is “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, the righteous to eternal life”. The context can be read in the post above. Jesus is clearly not addressing unbelievers. In fact, he is addressing those who are believers but have failed to carry out those things (works) required of believers.


    The Greek word aionios is used in this verse to signify everlasting and is also used in this verse to signify an age – a period of time. The correct reading is “And these will go away to an age (a period of time) of punishment, and the righteous to eternal life.” Also, and importantly, the Greek word kolasis used in this verse means “corrective punishment” - not eternal punishment.

    Why the two different uses of the same word? The word aionios has two meanings – eternal and an age (a limited period of time). The mistranslated verse first appears in the 5th century in Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The mistranslation has been copied ever since in the KJV and other Bibles.

    For those interested, see Young's Concordance, et al.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
    Junior Member
     
    #2

    Jan 21, 2020, 07:06 PM
    You just couldn't let it go, could you?
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
    Ultra Member
     
    #3

    Jan 21, 2020, 07:41 PM
    You can't argue your way out of it, either you believe or you don't. If you don't, and you know the argument, you condemn yourself
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
    Ultra Member
     
    #4

    Jan 21, 2020, 08:02 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    You just couldn't let it go, could you?
    I fulfill my promises.

    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    You can't argue your way out of it, either you believe or you don't. If you don't, and you know the argument, you condemn yourself
    Well, that's a cute argument. If I don't believe, I condemn myself. Some things here haven't changed a bit - Fascist Christianity is always with us.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
    Ultra Member
     
    #5

    Jan 21, 2020, 09:13 PM
    once again you twist the truth to hear what you want to hear
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
    Ultra Member
     
    #6

    Jan 21, 2020, 11:05 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    once again you twist the truth to hear what you want to hear
    Exactly how was the truth twisted? Or is this just another bit of nuttiness from you?
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
    Ultra Member
     
    #7

    Jan 22, 2020, 04:55 AM
    Quoting only opinions that seem to agree with you doesn't do anythink for you
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
    Ultra Member
     
    #8

    Jan 22, 2020, 10:16 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    Quoting only opinions that seem to agree with you doesn't do anythink for you
    Not my agreement. but scholarly consensus. This is an area of exegesis you're probably not familiar with. After all, why bother with the truth when you've already decided how and what to believe handed down to you from already ill-informed "believers".
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
    Ultra Member
     
    #9

    Jan 22, 2020, 12:33 PM
    Thank you - whoever moved this from Current Events. This is a much better page even though Current Events was where this thread began.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
    Ultra Member
     
    #10

    Feb 11, 2020, 01:40 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Athos View Post
    (posted by jlsnbe Nov 10. I said I'd get back to him. This can be moved to Christianity if desired.)



    Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”






    The topic is “Unbelievers are condemned to eternal punishment in hell”. This is the belief of a small group of fundamentalist Christians. As promised, here is my statement in opposition to this belief.


    It is absurd on its face. The Jesus who said Love Your Enemy would hardly condemn those enemies he loved to eternal punishment in hell. Other sayings of Jesus supporting the erroneous belief are shown to be misunderstandings of one or more of the necessary conditions or mistranslations. I won't go over them again because they have been done to death in previous posts.


    Matthew 25. The relevant portion is “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, the righteous to eternal life”. The context can be read in the post above. Jesus is clearly not addressing unbelievers. In fact, he is addressing those who are believers but have failed to carry out those things (works) required of believers.


    The Greek word aionios is used in this verse to signify everlasting and is also used in this verse to signify an age – a period of time. The correct reading is “And these will go away to an age (a period of time) of punishment, and the righteous to eternal life.” Also, and importantly, the Greek word kolasis used in this verse means “corrective punishment” - not eternal punishment.

    Why the two different uses of the same word? The word aionios has two meanings – eternal and an age (a limited period of time). The mistranslated verse first appears in the 5th century in Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The mistranslation has been copied ever since in the KJV and other Bibles.

    For those interested, see Young's Concordance, et al.

    I've given jlsnbe a month to reply. I will take a lack of reply as agreement. He is to be congratulated for changing his mind, and warned not to backslide promoting again his pernicious doctrine of a monstrous Jesus - especially to children.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #11

    Feb 11, 2020, 05:54 AM
    Just now saw this. You gave me a month. I took twenty minutes.

    It is absurd on its face. The Jesus who said Love Your Enemy would hardly condemn those enemies he loved to eternal punishment in hell.
    Except that condemning people to hell is exactly what He is warning us of in the passage. So you're saying that to believe what the passage says is absurd. That statement would seem to be plainly absurd.

    Other sayings of Jesus supporting the erroneous belief are shown to be misunderstandings of one or more of the necessary conditions or mistranslations. I won't go over them again because they have been done to death in previous posts.
    Which ones?

    As to the rest of your analysis, even if I was prepared to accept your ideas, and I am not, can you point to a single translation of the Bible that adopts your view? A quick check on my part showed that the NASB, ESV, Amp, Wyc, and NIV do not follow your lead. They are all very clear. So I am in the position of having to adopt your view, based, it would seem, upon a prejudiced position, or the translations of hundreds of scholars who are fluent in NT Greek and have spent a lifetime looking into the matter. They do not agree with you. For me, that settles the matter.

    But even if I was willing to accept your lone interpretation, it would still mean that people are going to be cast into the fire of hell for some relatively long period of time for, as you said, "corrective" punishment. But punishment does not change the heart, and it is the heart that God looks at. Nonetheless, even your translation leaves hell as a very real place to which Jesus is going to send people for a long period of time. Even your view establishes hell as a very real and terrible place.

    Jesus is not telling us that people must work to be saved. That would contradict the rest of the Bible. He is saying that those who have a genuine faith in Christ will, as a fruit of His presence in their lives, perform good works. An absence of good works shows an absence of Jesus.

    For further clarity, you can refer to Matt. 13:50; 10:28; 18:8,9; Luke 3:17; 12:5; 13:27,28; 17:19ff. You can also refer to Rev. 20:11ff; 21:8, 2 Thes. 1:9, Mark 9:43, Jude 1:7, and 2 Peter 3ff.

    Strong's translation of "kolasis" is as follows: "chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation." That does not agree with your view as being purely corrective.

    Your contention that the punishment of hell is a doctrine believed by some small set of fundamentalists is simply wrong. It is a central belief of evangelical Christianity, and is believed by the Catholic Church as well. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs." I am not a Catholic, but that sure seems pretty clear.

    You are free to not believe in hell if you wish. I have no intention of forcing my beliefs on you or anyone else. You are even free to adopt your (in my view) erroneous interpretation of Matthew 25. I don't think you are free to ask to be taken seriously when you basically say that the hundreds and thousands of serious scholars who translated the Bible got it wrong, but you, basically an amateur, got it right.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
    Ultra Member
     
    #12

    Feb 11, 2020, 11:33 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Except that condemning people to hell is exactly what He is warning us of in the passage. So you're saying that to believe what the passage says is absurd. That statement would seem to be plainly absurd. You are free to not believe in hell if you wish. ....... but you, basically an amateur, got it right.

    You have completely misconstrued my position regarding the topic at hand. It was always about UNBELIEVERS. UNBELIEVERS, get it? Your long diatribe here conveniently ignores that part.

    Calling someone an amateur is an argument ad hominem. You're good at that. Attributing arguments to me that I have never made is another logical fallacy.

    Based on the evidence of your posts in these pages, you exhibit a mean-spiritedness and an ignorance of the essential Biblical message. Like many fundamentalists, you miss the main point of the Bible seeing only the trees and never the forest.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #13

    Feb 11, 2020, 12:33 PM
    Many words but no real response, so I'll ask again.

    1. How is it that nearly every translation does not accept your definition of aionios?
    2. Would you agree that, even based upon your rendering of the Mt. 25 passage, that there is a hell and people will be sent there at least for some period of time?
    3. What was your view of these scriptures? Matt. 13:50; 10:28; 18:8,9; Luke 3:17; 12:5; 13:27,28; 17:19ff. You can also refer to Rev. 20:11ff; 21:8, 2 Thes. 1:9, Mark 9:43, Jude 1:7, and 2 Peter 3ff.
    4. Based upon what Strong's concordance had to say about "kolasis", do you think you missed it with your interpretation of the word?
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
    Ultra Member
     
    #14

    Feb 11, 2020, 02:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Many words but no real response, so I'll ask again.
    Do you believe unbelievers are sentenced to hell for eternal punishment?

    That baby you saved from abortion grows up to be an unbeliever and you believe the grown-up is sentenced to hell for eternal punishment? The grandmother in the rice paddy in China helping to feed her family and who never heard of Jesus Christ - does she also go to hell for eternal punishment?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #15

    Feb 11, 2020, 03:18 PM
    I thought if you don't hear it from the person yourself, it's hearsay, second hand account.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #16

    Feb 11, 2020, 04:19 PM
    Do you believe unbelievers are sentenced to hell for eternal punishment?

    That baby you saved from abortion grows up to be an unbeliever and you believe the grown-up is sentenced to hell for eternal punishment? The grandmother in the rice paddy in China helping to feed her family and who never heard of Jesus Christ - does she also go to hell for eternal punishment?
    As usual, you have no answers to questions. You just seem so fearful. Why is that?

    For me, in reply to your question, I will stick with the clear teaching of the Bible shown by the many scriptures I referenced which show, without question, that faith in Jesus is the only escape from the judgement of God which quite rightly falls upon sinners and which, quite rightly, would have fallen upon me had it not been for Jesus. John 3:14-17 is such a wonderful passage and teaches the saving ministry of Christ very plainly.

    Here is a passage from Exodus 12 for your consideration concerning God's judgement. "12“On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt."

    I still have my four questions. It would show some courage for you to answer them.

    1. How is it that nearly every translation does not accept your definition of aionios?
    2. Would you agree that, even based upon your rendering of the Mt. 25 passage, that there is a hell and people will be sent there at least for some period of time?
    3. What was your view of these scriptures? Matt. 13:50; 10:28; 18:8,9; Luke 3:17; 12:5; 13:27,28; 17:19ff. You can also refer to Rev. 20:11ff; 21:8, 2 Thes. 1:9, Mark 9:43, Jude 1:7, and 2 Peter 3ff.
    4. Based upon what Strong's concordance had to say about "kolasis", do you think you missed it with your interpretation of the word?

    There is also this passage from Romans 3. "2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

    And this from Ephesians 2. "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God."
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #17

    Feb 11, 2020, 04:33 PM
    I thought if you don't hear it from the person yourself, it's hearsay, second hand account.
    Actually that's not the case. It's hearsay when I claim I heard another person tell me what a third party said. Direct testimony is when I say I heard the person say it himself.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
    Expert
     
    #18

    Feb 11, 2020, 04:53 PM
    Oh! Okay!
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
    Uber Member
     
    #19

    Feb 11, 2020, 05:00 PM
    I wish we had some emojis on this site. I'd give you a "thumbs up".
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
    Jobs & Parenting Expert
     
    #20

    Feb 11, 2020, 05:07 PM
    tal -- I thought if you don't hear it from the person yourself, it's hearsay, second hand account.

    JL --
    Actually that's not the case. It's hearsay when I claim I heard another person tell me what a third party said. Direct testimony is when I say I heard the person say it himself.
    Are you two saying the same thing?
    Jim -> Mike -> Rob = hearsay
    Jim -> Mike = direct testimony

Not your question? Ask your question View similar questions

 

Question Tools Search this Question
Search this Question:

Advanced Search

Add your answer here.


Check out some similar questions!

The book of Matthew [ 3 Answers ]

What is the culture of the people in the book of Matthew?

Matthew 6:5 - 6:8 [ 12 Answers ]

5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is...

Matthew 13 [ 5 Answers ]

Hallo, Jakester, I think we are both interpreting Jesus' parable in a similar way by using different words. Your explanation corresponds, of course, to what Matthew is saying, while mine only pretends to explain the parable in a simpler way. In Jesus’ parable the farmer is supposed...


View more questions Search