[talaniman]

Economics and social issues seldom mix well, and fear of Nazis is never a good strategy with trade and PRICES. Yes this whole Brexit stuff was about imigration policy I think, but I doubt if the EU is going to get anything close to open borders, and the UK will not get good prices on an open market. You can blame Germany all you want and hide behind migrants but Vlad is already counting his money. Merkel is on her way out so which way will Germany go next?

[paraclete]

Economics and social issues seldom mix well, and fear of Nazis is never a good strategy with trade and PRICES. Yes this whole Brexit stuff was about imigration policy I think, but I doubt if the EU is going to get anything close to open borders, and the UK will not get good prices on an open market. You can blame Germany all you want and hide behind migrants but Vlad is already counting his money. Merkel is on her way out so which way will Germany go next?

Germany will continue its march to European domination as was laid out in the master plan and implemented by the very nazi who conceived it and got himself elected to be the first common market president

[jlisenbe]

Vlad is already counting his money.

Don't kid yourself. Russia's economy is just limping along.

[talaniman]

Vlad seems to limp along rather well and can expand to other countries despite those crippling sanctions. So do other countries we have sanctioned. Who's kidding who here? Iran has been sanction since the 80's and boy has that made a difference in their behavior! Can you explain that?

[jlisenbe]

Iran has been sanction since the 80's and boy has that made a difference in their behavior! Can you explain that?

That's a pretty good point. I'd respond in two ways. 1. We don't know what Iran would be doing if we had NOT imposed sanctions. It could very easily be much, much worse than it is now if they had been given billions of dollars in oil money in addition to the 1.5 billion gift from Obama. 2. The Iranian economy is in desperately bad condition and there is, say some people, considerable unrest in the country. That has to be a major concern of the fanatics running the show.

[talaniman]

Those sanctioned countries seem to survive rather well and reek havoc on society, as well as survive social upheaval within the country. Just suggesting that there has to be something else we don't know about and these dictators do.

[jlisenbe]

That could be the case, but again, we don't know but that issues would be far worse without sanctions.

[talaniman]

I suspect you are dead on, but I sure would like to know what the trick is. Maybe it's like many places where there is a poor economy and people depend on the underground economy to keep them going. I have heard that there is a global black market and many ways to skirt around laws and sanction like Saddam did in Iraq years ago and as Erdogan was suspected of doing during the rise of ISIS a few years ago. No secret the rich Koreans have a global hustle going to get what they need despite those sanctions from decades ago.

[paraclete]

I suspect you are dead on, but I sure would like to know what the trick is. Maybe it's like many places where there is a poor economy and people depend on the underground economy to keep them going. I have heard that there is a global black market and many ways to skirt around laws and sanction like Saddam did in Iraq years ago and as Erdogan was suspected of doing during the rise of ISIS a few years ago. No secret the rich Koreans have a global hustle going to get what they need despite those sanctions from decades ago.

People are resilient and able to do much with little. They don't suffer from the bloated economy of the west, you spend a lot of money because the big ripoff is in effect and you don't get value for money. Vlad can keep decades old aircraft flying while he develops a new range of weapons and once again you are playing catchup. Kim has a nuclear program on a shoe string because he isn't spending money on welfare

[Vacuum7]

Why is anyone surprised Russia keeps clicking along despite sanctions? RUSSIA SURVIVED A NAZI ONSLAUGHT AND LOST 21 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE PROCESS! Let's face it: Russia IS A BEAR!

Sanction on other countries DON'T WORK AS EFFECTIVELY AS THEY COULD BECAUSE OTHER COUNTRIES IGNORE THE SANCTIONS AND KEEP TRADING WITH THEM! The Europeans are some of the worst offenders of desiring to trade with sanctioned nations: Why were they so upset with Trump about telling the Iranians to shove Obama's deal up their arses? They were worried about getting Iranian petroleum, not making the Iranians do right. The E.U. will always work against U.S. interests! The E.U. is run by the Germans and they have large designs.

[paraclete]

The E.U. is run by the Germans and they have large designs.

Haven't I just been saying the same thing

[Vacuum7]

Paraclete: Yes...yes, you have! I don't trust the Germans: The never really gave up....they have simply changed tactics....the wolves are now wearing sheep's clothing. When you look at how much of the U.S. is German ethnicity, its the largest: Few people know about the German-American Bund Society: It was large and had dangerous potential....many convicted of espionage were members.

[jlisenbe]

The never really gave up....they have simply changed tactics

They can't be too keen on military aggression. If they are, then how could someone explain their relatively small army and air force? Their approach now is not even close to what Hitler was doing. Now are they after some sort of economic domination? That's possible, and perhaps that was your point.

[talaniman]

I will just note that the EU has a basic flaw that most trade unions have in that the have the richer states making policy for poorer states with less resources and economic options. The CENTRAL authority is to weak to be independent of the more powerful members so they can be virtually useless to develop policy that benefits all equally. Very easy to make the most powerful the bogey man and never address the inequality, that tends to be a norm among haves and have nots. We have the same dynamic here among our own states with the same economic disparity between those who could survive the GFC and those that couldn't and the slow trickle down of those that have not shared in the recovery.

The biggest clue was on the solution that is popular with capitalist orthodoxy, loan the poor a few bucks at a high interest and when they cannot pay, clamp down and take whatever assets they do have. If that were done here as opposed to grants and other vehicles to bring economic balance to poorer states then Mississippi and others would be in hock until perpetuity. A poor way to assist a poor state and bring them from poverty, and exploitive to a great degree.

Now is it a coincidence that this policy in Europe coincide with the social unrest and the rise of nationalistic right wing political power? Not so sure I can connect those dots but bears watching as a universal event. I can see it happening here also, as the governments ability to get anything done has left it weak and incompetent so probably deserves all the blame it gets, and the fallout is people turning away from it as an institution of trust, and filling the gaps with all sorts of social crap. That's not good for a growing nation anywhere, to paper over the needs of the many for what a few want.

[Vacuum7]

jlisenbe: Yes, to some extent, that was my point....and it will remain that way for a while...but, at some point, the Germans will raise the issue of the need for an "E.U." military force to protect E.U. interests, to counter perceived Russian threats, and to become "independent" of the need for U.S. military protection and presence: When that point arrives, WATCH OUT, it will come with speed!

Talaniman is spot-on with the idea that the more affluent nations in these "Unions" will ride the weaker poor ones like rented mules: straight-up exploitation! Nothing ever really changes, does it?

[jlisenbe]

The biggest clue was on the solution that is popular with capitalist orthodoxy, loan the poor a few bucks at a high interest and when they cannot pay, clamp down and take whatever assets they do have.

Talaniman is spot-on with the idea that the more affluent nations in these "Unions" will ride the weaker poor ones like rented mules: straight-up exploitation! Nothing ever really changes, does it?

Can you be specific with an example of this?

[Vacuum7]

jlisenbe: The most obvious ones are Greece and the Balkan states: The more affluent E.U. countries have used these nation as a "catchall" repository for illegal immigrants so they don't have handle so many themselves.

[jlisenbe]

Greece won't work. The Greeks tried to have the ideal Socialist country where everyone had 40 days (or whatever) of paid vacation, no one had to really work hard, free meds, free everything, and when the economy turned down, they were borrowed to the hilt and couldn't pay the many stupid loans they had made. There is no one to blame for Greece but Greece.

[talaniman]

jlisenbe: The most obvious ones are Greece and the Balkan states: The more affluent E.U. countries have used these nation as a "catchall" repository for illegal immigrants so they don't have handle so many themselves.

The immigrant situation and loading those already cash strapped resource poor countries with debts they cannot possibly repay within the given parameters has made for a volatile hot bed of social unrests and their governments have little choices but to go along somewhat with what amounts to payday loans for poor people. It would seem they do have a model for those states they could use to better effect with commercial and civic investments since they are a very lucrative financial force that creates jobs and eases an overburdened social system.

Not that our system of sustaining our poorer states is that much better, plenty of corruption and abuses to address, but still much better than adding debt and straining an in debt country even further, unless the goal is to push them out all together and seek the help of say Russia as a relief to the capitalistic exploitation of their fellow Europeans. Then where would the EU be? Losing the Brits was but the first sign of the inner turmoil the Europeans are experiencing that I suspect started when they left Iran and we marched right into Iraq on a pretense.

No the Euros had their fingers in that pie as well with our help, that in hindsight begins to look like more exploitation of conquered nations. Or kicking a poor country when it's down Take your pick because both could apply while those exploiters extract wealth and make profits hand over fist in the same time frame.

Greece won't work. The Greeks tried to have the ideal Socialist country where everyone had 40 days (or whatever) of paid vacation, no one had to really work hard, free meds, free everything, and when the economy turned down, they were borrowed to the hilt and couldn't pay the many stupid loans they had made. There is no one to blame for Greece but Greece.

Obviously I disagree very strongly since debt was the only thing offered by their fellow EU partners that knew full well they could never repay the debts. Like say that was a pay day loan mentality not meant to help but exploit.

[jlisenbe]

Countries need to learn to avoid debt like the plague. No one is to blame for Greece but Greece. No one forced them to go into debt. They really should look at Germany or Sweden and decide to become like them. I never cease to be amazed at how many problems could be solved by people adopting the idea of working 60 hours a week or how many hours it would take to pay the bills.

Not adding debt? We're foolishly adding a tril of debt a year. We are no example for anyone to follow.

Obviously I disagree very strongly since debt was the only thing offered by their fellow EU partners that knew full well they could never repay the debts.

If they had not loaned them money, and postponed existing debt payments, the Greeks would have been bankrupt. Last time I checked, it takes the agreement of TWO parties for a loan to take place. Why didn't Greece just pay their own way as they went?

We'll figure it out one of these days that corrupt pols love debt. It allows them to look caring and compassionate while not piling on an excessive load of taxes. We are completely stupid for falling for that tactic. It's dems and repubs alike doing it, Obama and Trump alike.