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    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #141

    Jan 16, 2020, 11:10 AM
    I can certainly understand your position JL and Vac as southerners, and maybe someday we can get to that point, but MY point is that even if you and JL haven't a racist bone in your body, you cannot say that about others and I was specific in that regard. Good old boys and white supremist were the specific people I referenced. Of course there are others, all over the country, who do have racist intents and prejudices and to not be able to acknowledge that fact is baffling to any one who experiences it in todays age. We can never have harmony as long as the racists exist, and maybe they always will, and act on those feelings even if you could wipe out racial designations.

    What say you to that fellows?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,296, Reputation: 154
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    #142

    Jan 16, 2020, 01:45 PM
    being aware that these aforemention people exist and mean you no good, is crucial to the survival for many minorities.
    But that was not what you said. You said that the core of Trump's support was white nationalists. That is completely untrue and smacks of bitterness.

    I don't know if denying their existence or minimizing their threat is a very healthy approach though. Sorry you took my comments so personally, and perhaps it's just because you don't feel as threatened by them as I do, but it does explain part of my attitude toward the dufus.
    I haven't denied their existence. I did not take your comment personally. I did call you out on the outrageous assertion that Trump's base is a bunch of racists. It's those kind of reckless comments that need to be thought through more carefully.

    Perhaps you should talk to your minority neighbors to get a better perspective of what you think is just an obsession. Actually I'm glad your experience with such people seems very limited.
    And that's another foolish comment. I worked in two schools for ten years with many black teachers on staff. I have interacted closely with many black parents. I worked for five years at a Choctaw Indian school. I attended a racially integrated church for over twenty years. To say my experience is "very limited" is ridiculous.

    As you can see, I don't have much patience with this kind of thinking since it, on the surface at least, closely resembles racial prejudice. If someone had suggested that Obama's core support came from black nationalists, or that people only voted for him because he was black, it would rightly have condemned as outrageous statements. Hopefully your statements were inaccurate, or perhaps I misread your intent somehow.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #143

    Jan 16, 2020, 02:18 PM
    Talaniman: I tend to get overly defensive on this subject....and I acknowledge that racists exists and they exists everywhere in the country, no part of it is exempt: Like the saying "You can't fix stupid" it is true beyond doubt...I just hate the stereotyping that the South gets on this subject: it is not constructive. I think I may have misread what you wrote and misunderstood your intent, also.

    I really want this race thing to go away: I can think of no other subject with such potential to divide, weaken, and disrupt these United States Of America than racial divisions.

    We have to be careful how we interpret and how we judge those individuals of the past: It is dangerous to view history through the prism of what we deem conventional wisdom of today.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #144

    Jan 16, 2020, 02:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    You forgot the ultra conservative good old boys and the white supremists that make up the dufus/repub base. Race always matters to them.
    You have stated many times you don't know any racists or supremist, and that's fine, and I'm glad you don't. But lets not pretend they are not part of the dufus/repub base. No not all, and probably a small number, but energized and emboldened in the dufus era, and let's examine why they gravitate to him. For one he has done some racist stuff in the past, things that use to disqualify someone for high office, like not wanting black people in his buildings, or around his racists clients. Fact check me yourself by just googling "Trump the racist". In addition, the ease in which it's dismissed and look the other way at such antics, not just you, is rather disturbing to anyone who has experienced such racist antics. and that's just real, and not imagined or mistaken. Makes me wonder W T F!

    You obviously misunderstood my intent, and got carried away by your own outrage. Racism is a big freakin', life changing, traumatic deal to those subjected to it, and it's been going on a long darn time. Unlike you, I don't have the luxury of ignoring it or downplaying it. If you were confused by my words or intent, you could have just asked for clarity instead of jumping to conclusions.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,296, Reputation: 154
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    #145

    Jan 16, 2020, 02:38 PM
    You have stated many times you don't know any racists or supremist, and that's fine, and I'm glad you don't.
    I don't think I've said that. I have said that I rarely hear a racist remark from people I know, and I know a lot of people.
    But lets not pretend they are not part of the dufus/repub base. No not all, and probably a small number, but energized and emboldened in the dufus era, and let's examine why they gravitate to him. For one he has done some racist stuff in the past, things that use to disqualify someone for high office, like not wanting black people in his buildings, or around his racists clients. Fact check me yourself by just googling "Trump the racist". In addition, the ease in which it's dismissed and look the other way at such antics, not just you, is rather disturbing to anyone who has experienced such racist antics. and that's just real, and not imagined or mistaken. Makes me wonder W T F!
    But again, that's not what you said. You said that Trump's base was composed of white supremacists. That is a flatly false statement. And as to Trump being a racist, the big gun aimed at him is the housing discrimination that did clearly seem to have happened BY HIS FATHER.

    You obviously misunderstood my intent, and got carried away by your own outrage. Racism is a big freakin', life changing, traumatic deal to those subjected to it, and it's been going on a long darn time. Unlike you, I don't have the luxury of ignoring it or downplaying it. If you were confused by my words or intent, you could have just asked for clarity instead of jumping to conclusions.
    I see. You made an outrageously false statement, but it's my "outrage" that is the problem. Hmmm. I have been subjected to racism. I think your assumption that Trump's base is composed of white nationalists smacks of racism itself. It is plainly untrue, and I can't imagine any good reason for you to say it. You didn't say Trump was racist. You said his supporters were racists. But if you want to clarify your statement, then go ahead. Why did you say that Trump's base was composed of "white nationalists"?

    I don't think you are a racist. I think you made a poorly worded statement.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #146

    Jan 16, 2020, 04:30 PM
    But again, that's not what you said. You said that Trump's base was composed of white supremacists. That is a flatly false statement. And as to Trump being a racist, the big gun aimed at him is the housing discrimination that did clearly seem to have happened BY HIS FATHER.
    Why don't I just supply a LINK. Poorly worded could be the culprit, but white supremist ARE a part of his base. They love him, and I have called him a racist many times before because I have always believed he was.

    I see. You made an outrageously false statement, but it's my "outrage" that is the problem. Hmmm. I have been subjected to racism. I think your assumption that Trump's base is composed of white nationalists smacks of racism itself. It is plainly untrue, and I can't imagine any good reason for you to say it. You didn't say Trump was racist. You said his supporters were racists. But if you want to clarify your statement, then go ahead. Why did you say that Trump's base was composed of "white nationalists"?
    Maybe this can explain it better than I can,They put the white supremist support at about 7% of his coalition, a lot, but not ALL by any means just to clarify and specify my position. In no way did I mean ALL or a large part of his base was racists.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #147

    Jan 16, 2020, 05:48 PM
    so what does it matter if white supremacists support him they are not going to support namby pamby liberals and communist fellow travellers. What you are really saying is you don't like the idea the more militant members of society might support Trump, I think I'll just go over in the corner and eat worms
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #148

    Jan 16, 2020, 06:43 PM
    It matters because you must appease your base, be it with red meat, or stuff they like and feeding white supremists and racists means minorities get sacrificed and screwed. Enjoy your worms.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,705, Reputation: 172
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    #149

    Jan 16, 2020, 07:21 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    It matters because you must appease your base, be it with red meat, or stuff they like and feeding white supremists and racists means minorities get sacrificed and screwed. Enjoy your worms.
    You see, this is the problem, you are not inclusive of all views, I like to eat red meat, doesn't make me a racist or a white supremacist.

    I can tell you that I expect everyone to have equal opportunity and none to be excluded because of their political views no matter how much I disagree with them. Seems to me that such views are not easily tolerated there
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,296, Reputation: 154
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    #150

    Jan 16, 2020, 08:07 PM
    They put the white supremist support at about 7% of his coalition, a lot, but not ALL by any means
    When did 7% become a "lot"? I would think it would be "relatively few". So would you say that a "lot" of Obama's support came from the BLM loonies?
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #151

    Jan 17, 2020, 03:41 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    You see, this is the problem, you are not inclusive of all views, I like to eat red meat, doesn't make me a racist or a white supremacist.

    I can tell you that I expect everyone to have equal opportunity and none to be excluded because of their political views no matter how much I disagree with them. Seems to me that such views are not easily tolerated there
    No Clete you are a bit off if you are elevating white terrorists to the level of legitimacy. That is the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    When did 7% become a "lot"? I would think it would be "relatively few". So would you say that a "lot" of Obama's support came from the BLM loonies?
    Same answer I just gave Clete. Are you righties comparing White Supremists to other social activist groups and defending them?
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #152

    Jan 17, 2020, 05:20 AM
    Hold on for a minute: White supremacist supporting Trump...these are extremist who really don't have "THEIR OWN PARTY"...why do they support Trump? Probably because the choices they have to support: they certainly cannot support leftists of the Democrat Party because socialist are in 180 degrees out of phase with the extremist ideals of supremist. I mean, why don't we point out the outright communist Marxist that support the Democrats? Because they are also extremist. As a candidate or party, you can't dictate WHO is going to come under your umbrella, uninvited. Trump didn't tell the supremist to come support him any more than the Democrats asked the communist to come and support them. Why does anyone want to pick out examples of extremist and hold them up as legitimate? This is just a play to the emotions and is disingenuous.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,296, Reputation: 154
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    #153

    Jan 17, 2020, 06:03 AM
    Same answer I just gave Clete. Are you righties comparing White Supremists to other social activist groups and defending them?
    I'm saying the white supremacists, the BLM loonies, most of the NAACP crowd, and other race-oriented groups are all negatives for our country. The loonie groups come in all kinds of colors.

    You never did explain how 7% equates to "a lot" in your world.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #154

    Jan 17, 2020, 08:24 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Hold on for a minute: White supremacist supporting Trump...these are extremist who really don't have "THEIR OWN PARTY"...why do they support Trump? Probably because the choices they have to support: they certainly cannot support leftists of the Democrat Party because socialist are in 180 degrees out of phase with the extremist ideals of supremist. I mean, why don't we point out the outright communist Marxist that support the Democrats? Because they are also extremist. As a candidate or party, you can't dictate WHO is going to come under your umbrella, uninvited. Trump didn't tell the supremist to come support him any more than the Democrats asked the communist to come and support them. Why does anyone want to pick out examples of extremist and hold them up as legitimate? This is just a play to the emotions and is disingenuous.
    I can almost see your point, except for lumping White Supremists in with Marxist and the Communists, may be a stretch for me, because only one of those groups represents injury and death in my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I'm saying the white supremacists, the BLM loonies, most of the NAACP crowd, and other race-oriented groups are all negatives for our country. The loonie groups come in all kinds of colors.

    You never did explain how 7% equates to "a lot" in your world.
    Like I wrote above, I have a hard time believing civil rights groups pose the same physical threat as White Supremists. and doing the math, 4 million extremists that may be violent to others is a lot in my mind, so I guess a persons politics and views are tolerable, and they have a right to express them, but I kind of draw a line with potential violence.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,296, Reputation: 154
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    #155

    Jan 17, 2020, 09:32 AM
    Like I wrote above, I have a hard time believing civil rights groups pose the same physical threat as White Supremists.
    When was the last time a white supremacist group caused, as BLM did, the kind of rioting and destruction as occurred in Ferguson, Missouri, and then only to find out that their core complaint of police violence wasn't even valid?

    and doing the math, 4 million extremists that may be violent to others is a lot in my mind, so I guess a persons politics and views are tolerable, and they have a right to express them,
    If I accept your figure of 4 million (I don't), then your own estimate of 7% would mean that about 60 million are NOT white supremacists. So in what universe could 4 mil be the "core support" of a group of 60 mil? Besides, if there are really 4 mil of them, then why is it that WS demonstrations nearly always only attract a few dozen people? Where are the other 3,999,950 of them?

    but I kind of draw a line with potential violence.
    So you draw the line with BLM, or with the Nation of Islam?

    It just seems to me you have a standard you live by. If it's liberal, then it's good. If it's conservative, then it's bad.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #156

    Jan 17, 2020, 10:52 AM
    Talaniman: The track record of KILLINGS BY WHITE SUPREMIST Vs. KILLING BY MARXIST/COMMUNIST weighs heavily in favor of the communist/Marxist: Stalin-communist + Mao-communist = 80 million dead: White Supremist, even if you throw Hitler in the midst, pales by comparison. Even recently, the hidden face Marxist of Antifa are attacking and causing injuries to people. Not defending the POS supremist, they are pure scum, but they are nothing of a threat compared to communist/Marxist.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #157

    Jan 17, 2020, 03:29 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    When was the last time a white supremacist group caused, as BLM did, the kind of rioting and destruction as occurred in Ferguson, Missouri, and then only to find out that their core complaint of police violence wasn't even valid?
    Violence like the loony shooters of synagogues? Actually Ferguson was a catalyst for many police community changes but how was BLM connected to that?

    If I accept your figure of 4 million (I don't), then your own estimate of 7% would mean that about 60 million are NOT white supremacists. So in what universe could 4 mil be the "core support" of a group of 60 mil? Besides, if there are really 4 mil of them, then why is it that WS demonstrations nearly always only attract a few dozen people? Where are the other 3,999,950 of them?
    For one, I have never used the phrase core support, and obviously my estimate was a national estimate of WS voters. What you think they run around in a big gang? No guy there are many small local groups that fall under the Supremist label.

    So you draw the line with BLM, or with the Nation of Islam?

    It just seems to me you have a standard you live by. If it's liberal, then it's good. If it's conservative, then it's bad.
    Neither of which is connected to violence and TNI is a religious group like Christianity. It's never been about liberals or conservatives. That's just your spin. I think in previous posts I specified extremes on both sides. For the record BLM and TNI are nowhere near the threat that WS is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    Talaniman: The track record of KILLINGS BY WHITE SUPREMIST Vs. KILLING BY MARXIST/COMMUNIST weighs heavily in favor of the communist/Marxist: Stalin-communist + Mao-communist = 80 million dead: White Supremist, even if you throw Hitler in the midst, pales by comparison. Even recently, the hidden face Marxist of Antifa are attacking and causing injuries to people. Not defending the POS supremist, they are pure scum, but they are nothing of a threat compared to communist/Marxist.
    Vac I don't even count those old world political parties as part of the discussion of modern day American groups. It just ain't the same.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,296, Reputation: 154
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    #158

    Jan 17, 2020, 05:00 PM
    For one, I have never used the phrase core support, and obviously my estimate was a national estimate of WS voters.
    This was your quote. You said "base" which means the same as "core". "You forgot the ultra conservative good old boys and the white supremists that make up the dufus/repub base. Race always matters to them."

    Violence like the loony shooters of synagogues? Actually Ferguson was a catalyst for many police community changes but how was BLM connected to that?
    BLM was up to its elbows at Ferguson. The WS has never inititated anything even close to being that destructive. From Wikipedia: "The movement became nationally recognized for street demonstrations following the 2014 deaths of two African Americans: Michael Brown—resulting in protests and unrest in Ferguson, a city near St. Louis—and Eric Garner in New York City."

    Neither of which is connected to violence
    BLM most definitely is.
    and TNI is a religious group like Christianity. It's never been about liberals or conservatives. That's just your spin.
    I never said they were liberal. They are very much a race based movement and promote black superiority and black nationalism. If the WS/WN people are wrong, and they are, then why aren't the BS/BN people wrong?

    For the record BLM and TNI are nowhere near the threat that WS is.
    Go tell that to the people in Ferguson and see how far you get.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,214, Reputation: 10853
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    #159

    Jan 18, 2020, 08:05 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    This was your quote. You said "base" which means the same as "core". "You forgot the ultra conservative good old boys and the white supremists that make up the dufus/repub base. Race always matters to them."
    Maybe I should have stipulated I meant WS and good old boys were a PART of conservative base. Would that have made a difference in your understanding?

    BLM was up to its elbows at Ferguson. The WS has never inititated anything even close to being that destructive. From Wikipedia: "The movement became nationally recognized for street demonstrations following the 2014 deaths of two African Americans: Michael Brown—resulting in protests and unrest in Ferguson, a city near St. Louis—and Eric Garner in New York City."
    I have seen no violent activity initiated or engaged by them and peaceful protests seem to be all they have ever done. You got something different than peaceful protests, march's and demonstrations, please share that.

    BLM most definitely is. I never said they were liberal. They are very much a race based movement and promote black superiority and black nationalism. If the WS/WN people are wrong, and they are, then why aren't the BS/BN people wrong?
    Race based maybe, but you will have to show where they promote black superiority and black nationalism to even start equating them with the WS movement with a history of violence death and hate.

    Go tell that to the people in Ferguson and see how far you get.
    Go ahead, Ferguson has changed quite a bit since the riots, for the better.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 47, Reputation: 2
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    #160

    Jan 18, 2020, 08:41 AM
    Talaniman: What about the Black Panther Party? They have a history of violence. I believe the Black Panthers have murdered cops before, have they not? They preach racially based hatred, as well as the White Supremist do. We can even go over to Louis Farrakan: He calls Caucasians "White Devils"...yet there are pictures of Obama and Farrakan together. Can you find a picture of Trump with the Imperial Wizard Of The KKK or Nazi Party? I know you can't. And, then there is the darling of the left: Antifa! Yes, Antifa who claims themselves to be against Fascist but who themselves act like Fascists and run up and down the streets with masks on while being fully supported by the left: And they are violent, as well.

    Nothing precludes anyone from saying that they "support" one candidate over another or one party over another. And, sometimes, these supporters are mere plants from the opposition who are attempting to draw inferences between some despicable group and whomever they oppose. After all the intrigue we have seen with the falsities that have been exposed through the accusers in the Russia Investigation and the Ukraine accusation fiasco, I don't doubt anything any more.

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