[Vacuum7]

Paraclete: Yes, your right: We could be closer to that reality than we know with Smallpox, Plague, and other stuff hanging out there, ready to go off as soon as we let our guard down.

[paraclete]

Paraclete: Yes, your right: We could be closer to that reality than we know with Smallpox, Plague, and other stuff hanging out there, ready to go off as soon as we let our guard down.

While that might be true, this is happening all the time for example; at the moment measles is making a reappearance because of stupidity where people are encouraged to forgo vaccination. Swine fever is a serious problem in the pig population which may bring food shortages, but our guard is down because the profit motive has allowed the opioid crisis to arise. We don't need illness to kill us, Pharma will gladly do it for us

[Vacuum7]

Paraclete: Very astute statement, can't help but agree. BIG PHARMA is out of control.

[talaniman]

Capitalism is out of control. The flow of money is a one way street, and what trickles down is high interest rates, hidden fees, and debts, and higher prices. We learned nothing from past recessions and downturns in the business cycles with such tools as variable interest rates. Big Pharma is hardly the only price manipulators out there, and lobbiest make sure any legistlation makes their clients profits.

Are you forgetting there are two sets of rules differing between rich and poor? Big money cares little for what everybody else goes through while the pursue MO'MONEY by any means necessary.

[jlisenbe]

Are you forgetting there are two sets of rules differing between rich and poor?

One of those rules is that the wealthy actually have to pay income tax. The top 20% of income earners pay more than 85% of income taxes. The bottom 50% pay next to nothing. Is that one of the rules you are talking about?

The wealthy also pay enormous amounts of property taxes, capital gains taxes, and inheritance taxes. The lower income people pay far, far less of those taxes. So that's another rule you might be referring to.

[talaniman]

Poor people have nothing to tax except wages, often meager, while the wealtly have major assets and options along with plenty of loopholes and deductions and perks with accountants to guide them and lobbyests to speak for them. Add to that the tax shelters and havens, they have plenty of perks they take advantage of just with the tax code.

I wouldn't expect a supply sider such as yourself to have it any other way though, but the disconnect between rich guys and government policy and the lower 90% of Americans is forever lost on you, and that's your choice but you don't get to holler about the debt, and defend supply siders tax policy without recognizing that's how the debt is perpetrated in the first place. Poor people ain't contributing to the debt nor benefit from the trillions of dollars that the cost of that debt entails, nor does it stimulate the 70% consumer demand economy of the US.

Really simple dude, you want to pay the debt, then you need tax policy that does that and guess what, poor and middle class people, the bulk of the population, cannot do that. So now what?

[paraclete]

One of those rules is that the wealthy actually have to pay income tax. The top 20% of income earners pay more than 85% of income taxes. The bottom 50% pay next to nothing. Is that one of the rules you are talking about?

The wealthy also pay enormous amounts of property taxes, capital gains taxes, and inheritance taxes. The lower income people pay far, far less of those taxes. So that's another rule you might be referring to.

You keep trotting out this hackneyed statistic to defend privilege with no understanding at all. The wealthy are the ones who benefit most from the economy. How many poor people drive Ferraris. How many poor can enjoy the benefits of proper healthcare. Low income people pay less because they have less, it is called a progressive taxation system because it is designed to tax those who benefit most, but the ones at the top have loop holes to avoid the impact. Until these loopholes are closed the system will still be ufair

[jlisenbe]

while the wealtly have major assets and options along with plenty of loopholes and deductions and perks with accountants to guide them and lobbyests to speak for them. Add to that the tax shelters and havens, they have plenty of perks they take advantage of just with the tax code.

Yeah. That's how the top 20% of income earners end up paying 85% of income taxes and vast amounts of inheritance and property taxes. Wow. How clever those rich people are!!

I wouldn't expect a supply sider such as yourself to have it any other way though, but the disconnect between rich guys and government policy and the lower 90% of Americans is forever lost on you, and that's your choice but you don't get to holler about the debt, and defend supply siders tax policy without recognizing that's how the debt is perpetrated in the first place. Poor people ain't contributing to the debt nor benefit from the trillions of dollars that the cost of that debt entails, nor does it stimulate the 70% consumer demand economy of the US.

I've never claimed to be a supply sider. I believe in personal freedom and free enterprise, and then let the chips fall where they may.

Really simple dude, you want to pay the debt, then you need tax policy that does that and guess what, poor and middle class people, the bulk of the population, cannot do that. So now what?

Fed debt was 23% of GDP in 1982. By 2011 it had grown to 97%. Only stupid, ignorant people ignore such things. You are neither of those, so you need to get on board. As to how to deal with it, you cannot tax your way out of a trillion dollar deficit without wrecking the economy. Federal budget outlays are now 1,000% greater than just in 1980, which is to say it has grown 10X larger in only 40 years. That is absurd. Spending must be cut substantially.

You keep trotting out this hackneyed statistic to defend privilege with no understanding at all. The wealthy are the ones who benefit most from the economy. How many poor people drive Ferraris. How many poor can enjoy the benefits of proper healthcare. Low income people pay less because they have less, it is called a progressive taxation system because it is designed to tax those who benefit most, but the ones at the top have loop holes to avoid the impact. Until these loopholes are closed the system will still be ufair

I have said nothing to defend privilege. The rich benefit from being rich? Well congratulations, Mr. Edison. You think you just discovered that? You think that has not been true for all of time? Low income people pay less because they have less? Well congratulations on that amazing discovery as well.

It is your statement at the end about closing loopholes to make the system "fair" that is complete nonsense. The top 20% pay over 85% now and the bottom 50% pay next to nothing. How much fairer a system do you want? That's what really gets me about your contention. What do you want to do, go to the bottom 50% and cut their taxes from the current 2.7% to nothing? Yeah boy. That would solve a lot of problems. A "hackneyed" statistic? Only to those who don't care for the truth. If you want to contribute, then you need something more substantial than telling us that poor people don't drive a Ferrari.

Want another "hackneyed" statistic? The top 1% of income earners earn 20% of the income, but pay almost 40% of the income taxes. Yeah, those rich guys have sure got the system rigged to their benefit big time! How unfair!!

One of my missions in life is to help more people see that fallacy of the kind of thinking you used. It's the idea that it's all of those sorry rich folks who are shafting the rest of us. If we could only make the tax system "fair", then our problems would be over. Well, I don't know how else to make a system "fair" than to have the people who make a lot of money pay nearly all of the taxes. How much "fairness" would it take to satisfy you?

[paraclete]

Want another "hackneyed" statistic? The top 1% of income earners earn 20% of the income, but pay almost 40% of the income taxes. Yeah, those rich guys have sure got the system rigged to their benefit big time! How unfair!!

What a dill you are relying, on the refuge of a scoundrel; STATISTICS. Do you honestly think those at the bottom should have their meagre resources taxed in the same way as the rich. This is a quick way to bankrupt your economy. The rich understand this in a way you do not

[jlisenbe]

Do you honestly think those at the bottom should have their meagre resources taxed in the same way as the rich.

So let's see. The top 20% pay 85% of income taxes. The bottom 50% pay 2.7%. On what planet are you living where that somehow equates to them being taxed "in the same way as the rich"?

You don't like statistics? That's because they don't support your ridiculous ideas. But again, what kind of "fairness" would you propose?

[paraclete]

So let's see. The top 20% pay 85% of income taxes. The bottom 50% pay 2.7%. On what planet are you living where that somehow equates to them being taxed "in the same way as the rich"?

You don't like statistics? That's because they don't support your ridiculous ideas. But again, what kind of "fairness" would you propose?

I don't like statistics because they are used to support all sorts of outrageous arguments, just stating a "fact" over and over again does nothing and shows you have not taken broader factors into account. You think my ideas rediculous, well let me ask you have you studied economics? perhaps you went to the same economics school as your illustrious leader, who emerged with no understanding other than a hatred of taxes and a love of tariffs, which he thinks don't tax the rich.

Where I come from governments start with reducing the tax burden on the low end, this stimulates the economy, because they know reducing the tax burden on the rich does nothing but enrich them. Our economy has flourished since we did away with tariffs and progressively reduced taxation. I live in a place where many of the best ideas have been implemented, tempered with common sense, so I know that if I tell you something it has been tested. Universal health care works, funded by a levy on the population. Consumption taxes work, those who have more to spend pay more, gun control works, resource royalties work, income tax has been progressively reduced, so that those on the bottom pay nothing

[jlisenbe]

Where I come from governments start with reducing the tax burden on the low end, this stimulates the economy, because they know reducing the tax burden on the rich does nothing but enrich them. Our economy has flourished since we did away with tariffs and progressively reduced taxation.

Where to begin? THE LOW END PAYS PRACTICALLY NO TAXES!!! HOW CAN THE TAX BURDEN BE REDUCED ANY FURTHER OH WISE ONE???

I hoped that shouting in text might help. You think your economy is flourishing, try comparing it to ours and show me how you are ahead of the United States. But that would require you to use some more of those statistics you dislike so much.

[Vacuum7]

Paraclete: I like a lot of ideas you have but not the ones about taxing only the rich and making anyone on the bottom pay no taxes....and, of course, the ideas you have about gun control: We have a Constitutional Right to own firearms, so that idea won't be happening here in the U.S.: You know, COMMUNISM WOULD WORK, TOO, IF YOU TOOK AWAY THE PEOPLE'S CAPACITY TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.....You might want to ask yourself "How are Australians supposed to fend off a screwball who declares himself dictator for life now that the liberals have taken your firearms away?" You guys will be screwed: You should never let rotten politicians take your guns away and it doesn't matter what stripe they hail from, either.

Now, there are all kinds of different State Level income and property taxes that vary from state to state: We just aren't going to get into the CENTRAL GOVERNMENT CONTROL crap, if we wanted to follow that route, we would have adopted straight-up Marxism and we have, so far, rejected becoming Bolshevik subjects, despite a fair amount of radicals brave enough to show their dirty faces lately.

The whole notion of "CLASS WARFARE", perpetuated by the ideas of "hatred of the rich" is bunch of pure, unadulterated bullsh%$! The United States should cherish its RICH: Our RICH are a national treasure! Our RICH pay the most of our Federal Taxes. Our RICH employ vast numbers of our population: HOW MANY POOR ARSE PEOPLE HAVE YOU SEEN CREATING OR EMPLOYING PEOPLE? I already know the answer to that question. CLASS WARFARE IS A COMMUNIST IDEAL. Keep messing with the RICH and the RICH will just say ADIO and you won't be able to collect any taxes! The RICH take a lot of abuse already.

[paraclete]

Paraclete: I like a lot of ideas you have but not the ones about taxing only the rich and making anyone on the bottom pay no taxes....and, of course, the ideas you have about gun control: We have a Constitutional Right to own firearms, so that idea won't be happening here in the U.S. Now, there are all kinds of different State Level income and property taxes that vary from state to state: We just aren't going to get into the CENTRAL GOVERNMENT CONTROL crap, if we wanted to follow that route, we would have adopted straight-up Marxism and we have, so far, rejected becoming Bolshevik subjects, despite a fair amount of radicals brave enough to show their dirty faces lately.

The whole notion of "CLASS WARFARE", perpetuated by the ideas of "hatred of the rich" is bunch of pure, unadulterated bullsh%$! The United States should cherish its RICH: Our RICH are a national treasure! Our RICH pay the most of our Federal Taxes. Our RICH employ vast numbers of our population: HOW MANY POOR ARSE PEOPLE HAVE YOU SEEN CREATING OR EMPLOYING PEOPLE? I already know the answer to that question.

Another rabid capitalist, they are lining up today. You really have no idea because you have been sold on the idea of your wonderful democracy, which isn't. You think me a bolshevik, why, because I oppose oligarchy of the rich that rules your land. Billionaires in power, tell me how that differs from Russia? You should not be against the poor and the disadvantaged, on such is your nation built.

The only class warfare is the oppression of the masses, not the hatred of the rich. Your ideas suggest the rich should not be taxed, that the masses should bear the burden. Out of what will they provide the money? No wonder your avatar is vacuum

I have not said only the rich should be taxed, but even in your nation taxation is progressive. What I do say is the low income should not be taxed. What is the point in taxing them then handing out welfare to supplement their income. It is just a political exercise, grandstanding! What was the point of that stupid exercise Obama initiated. Just a tax on the poor

[jlisenbe]

Another rabid capitalist, they are lining up today. You really have no idea because you have been sold on the idea of your wonderful democracy, which isn't. You think me a bolshevik, why, because I oppose oligarchy of the rich that rules your land. Billionaires in power, tell me how that differs from Russia? You should not be against the poor and the disadvantaged, on such is your nation built.

The only class warfare is the oppression of the masses, not the hatred of the rich. Your ideas suggest the rich should not be taxed, that the masses should bear the burden. Out of what will they provide the money? No wonder you avatar is vacuum

Many words...no content.

[paraclete]

Really, and I suppose you contribute content at least I have context

[jlisenbe]

My content is called statistics and facts. You don't like them because you don't have any and mine contradict your positions.

[Vacuum7]

Bottom Line: The "Evil Rich" are an essential for the continuation of this nation AS WE KNOW IT TODAY! They are not dead weight and they aren't to be demonized. With the RICH, progress in all areas is possible and without them the avenues of progress are extremely limited. To rid ourselves of the RICH would be akin to ridding yourself of your own right leg.

[paraclete]

Milch cows

[Athos]

Bottom Line: The "Evil Rich" are an essential for the continuation of this nation AS WE KNOW IT TODAY! They are not dead weight and they aren't to be demonized. With the RICH, progress in all areas is possible and without them the avenues of progress are extremely limited. To rid ourselves of the RICH would be akin to ridding yourself of your own right leg.

Finally, the right-wing philosophy in black and white.

1. The rich are essential since all progress depends on them.
2. The poor, low-income and middle class need to be periodically culled in an efficient manner. World War and/or an epidemic/pandemic like the plague is best for maximum killing of this segment of society.

It's all in black and white in this thread. In case you're shocked, don't be. It's good to know what the right thinks of the people.

Throw in a bit of religion, and you come up with the unbelieving dead spending eternity in hell undergoing constant torture. That's from the religious right.