[jlisenbe]

Do you believe that unbelievers go to hell where they are eternally punished?

Gosh you don't listen. We've already had this talk. Saying that unbelievers go to hell, which is an accurate statement, is not the same as saying they go to hell BECAUSE of their unbelief. I would not word it that way, however. I would say that sinners are under the judgement of God and will someday go to hell, but Christ came to save those who put their faith in Him. As I stated earlier, "Paul sums up the argument in 5:1 where he states, 'Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand.'" That's why it's called the "good news".

Now if you want to contradict that, then you should begin with the Bible. In fact, you might want to gather up your courage and begin with what Jesus said about hell in Matthew 25.

[Athos]

Saying that unbelievers go to hell, which is an accurate statement

You're halfway there. Are these unbelievers who go to hell eternally punished? Yes or no will do.

[Wondergirl]

Saying that unbelievers go to hell, which is an accurate statement, is not the same as saying they go to hell BECAUSE of their unbelief.

If unbelievers don't go to hell because of their unbelief, why then do they go to hell?

[jlisenbe]

You're halfway there. Are these unbelievers who go to hell eternally punished? Yes or no will do.

Nah. It's time for you to pull your britches up and speak on Matthew 25. In doing so, you will answer your question yourself. It's a win-win. Have a little courage and you will find what you seek. Here is the passage.

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If unbelievers don't go to hell because of their unbelief, why then do they go to hell?

Read what I posted several posts above. You'll find the answer there. In fact, I'll make it easy on you.

Rather than depending on undependable others to state my views, and despite the fact that I have plainly stated this just a week or two ago, let me say that I do not contend that people go to hell because of a lack of faith in Christ. People go to hell because they have sinned and are under the judgement of God. It is by faith in Christ that forgiveness is given, and it is strictly by grace, which is to say it is wholly undeserved by us.

The judgement of God is proportional to a person's offenses. This is clearly stated in Luke 12:41ff, Matthew 10:15 and 11:22, Luke 12:47,48, and Hebrews 10:29. I have no idea how that enters into the concept of hell, but it would certainly be a just thing for God to do.

It is also clear that no one can be saved by their good works, which is to say by being "good". This is clearly taught in the first five chapters of Romans and is, in fact, the entire reason for the existence of that passage. Paul sums up the argument in 5:1 where he states, "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand." It is also plainly stated in John 3:16 and a multitude of other places. The passage "around" John 3:16 (15 to 21), is a particularly beautiful passage to me.

That there is a hell is clear from Matthew 25 where it is stated it is both eternal and fiery. It is also clearly taught in Matthew 13:41-43 and Luke 13:26-30.

That the judgement of God is going to be a terrible event is clear from Rev. 20:11-15. "11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

You can also go back and read the two passages which were quoted from Aquinas, both of which clearly show the essential nature of faith in Christ.

[Athos]

Nah. (To the question - Are unbelievers eternally punished?)

Well, well, well. That's a far cry from your original position which was UNBELIEVERS GO TO HELL WHERE THEY ARE ETERNALLY PUNISHED.

"Nah" isn't much of an apology, but it will have to do.

There's no need now to go into Matthew 25 since you have rescinded your belief. But I will do it anyway. It may help to reinforce your revised belief.

[jlisenbe]

So fearful. Sad. You cannot bring yourself to address Matthew 25, and now it's on display for all to see. Such a fearful person you are. What a shame. Well, maybe someday.

As for me, I've changed nothing. Again, you have many words but no quotes from me. No quotes. No scriptures. No stand. No courage. That's you. But if you want to demonstrate that is not you, then take a stand. I hope you will and address the passage. I hope my description of you is proven wrong. Otherwise, then you are guilty as charged.

[Athos]

You cannot bring yourself to address Matthew 25,

Still can't read? Here's what I wrote.

There's no need now to go into Matthew 25 since you have rescinded your belief. But I will do it anyway. It may help to reinforce your revised belief.

[jlisenbe]

There's no need now to go into Matthew 25 since you have rescinded your belief. But I will do it anyway. It may help to reinforce your revised belief.

Sorry to have to tell you this, but I have rescinded nothing. I believe as I did when this whole deal started. Hell is eternal, and I've said nothing to the contrary. Perhaps you misunderstood the meaning of my "Nah".

Can I read? That made me laugh. I can't read your response to the Matthew passage because, well, it doesn't exist. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Honestly, you are such a puzzle. So full of questions but so fearful of answers. Always tomorrow. "Some day I will." Well, who knows. Anyone who believes Aquinas saw no need for faith in Christ might still be able to summon the courage.

[Vacuum7]

Athos: If you are so unfortunate to go to HELL you are guaranteed that you will experience ETERNAL PUNISHMENT: THAT'S THE DEFINIION OF HELL!

[talaniman]

The definition of hell is best summed up in 4 more years of the dufus words, antics and behavior.

[jlisenbe]

The definition of hell is best summed up in 4 more years of the dufus words, antics and behavior.

If that's true, then it would turn out that hell is not eternal but only four years long. (<;

For the humor impaired, that was a joke.

[paraclete]

apparently it is no joke for those who are politically challenged

[talaniman]

I thought that was rather good humor although rather rare. 8D

[talaniman]

Hope you wingers still are in a humorous mood after two articles of impeachment will be filed against the dufus and the IG reports said no spying on the dufus campaign and the investigations were justified.

Of course the dufus claims the report said there was spying and his ratings are through the roof after Pelosi announced the charges, while Barr said the report was lousy.

[jlisenbe]

It does seem that there will be articles of impeachment filed. Now if they can just come up with some evidence...

[paraclete]

It does seem that there will be articles of impeachment filed. Now if they can just come up with some evidence...

You know they don't need to do that, The senate will vote without evidence and it will all be for nothing

[talaniman]

Plenty of evidence, but some wouldn't know it if it bit them in the arse, or would deny it like they have been doing, or wouldn't care because they are sycophants who will do as the dufus tells them to do, or the worse lot will believe whatever lies the dufus tells them.

You know how it goes with you wingers. Loonies don't have to make sense just plenty of noise.

[paraclete]

Hey, don't include me in this, I stay near the centre. I agree with you that Dump does strange things, like he doesn't think rationally, but this blatant political process isn't helping anyone

[jlisenbe]

You know they don't need to do that, The senate will vote without evidence and it will all be for nothing

Just about right.

Plenty of evidence, but some wouldn't know it if it bit them in the arse, or would deny it like they have been doing, or wouldn't care because they are sycophants who will do as the dufus tells them to do, or the worse lot will believe whatever lies the dufus tells them.

You know how it goes with you wingers. Loonies don't have to make sense just plenty of noise.

Yeah, just like you had the names of five people who had first hand knowledge of the president's guilt, except that, of course, then you didn't. And you just knew that Kavanaugh had to be guilty, except, of course, you had no evidence. And you think we make noise??? Noise and name-calling is all you have, so that's all you go with. Loud noise to cover up ignorance and dishonesty.

You have a very simple and corrupt philosophy of justice. If it benefits you and the liberal left wing of the dem party, then it must surely be true. If it is a negative for Trump or for conservative values, then it must be correct. But if it's bad for the liberal dems, even it it's true, then it must be false. What a strange world you live in.

[Vacuum7]

jlisenbe: You said the "liberal left wing of the Democrat Party: Is there a CONSERVATIVE WING? Is there, even, a CENTER WING (Moderate)? From where I am standing, the ENTIRE Democrat Party is liberal and left wing!