[Athos]

So the two of you are suggesting we bash people??? Why?

Good example of how jl distorts what others say.

[Athos]

Athos routinely lies and distorts what I have said. I have corrected him on a number of occasions, and his consistent lying is why I just don't respond to him anymore. And I have certainly never said your quote from above or many of the ridiculous things he alleges

Athos routinely lies and distorts what I have said.

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black – this claim is breathtaking. I challenge anyone to compare his lies and distortions with my non-existent ones.

I have corrected him on a number of occasions, and his consistent lying is why I just don't respond to him anymore.

His “correction” is simply repeating his bizarre statements about life after death. His not responding anymore is simply because he cannot admit to his sick belief about most of humanity going to hell for eternity.

And I have certainly never said your quote from above or many of the ridiculous things he alleges.

Do you deny that you believe that unbelievers go to hell where they are punished for eternity? No, I didn't think so.

From Talinman
I have no such faith in the words of ancient man, nor what he says others have said. I try not to judge those that do.

Would that JL thought the same way, at least re unbelievers going to hell for eternal punishment.

There is salvation only in Christ.... For those who have never heard, I think that's why we should all be actively involved in spreading the gospel.

That's real big of you, JL. Tell me, how does that work for the millions that you and others don't get around to? How does that work for those who decide to stay in their own religion? How does that work for one of those unborn children you so love, when they grow up and become born children who don't believe like you do? How does that work for the millions who lived in past ages before Christ?

I have no faith in the words of ancient man either.

But your Bible is written in those words of ancient man. Or do you deny that also?

The word of God, however, is a different story.

Did God write the Bible? How did that work?

Better make sure you have it right. It's the most important question you will ever face.

You just can't discuss this topic without a threat, can you? “Better make sure...”, OR ELSE.

From Wondergirl
It was ancient man who wrote down God's words and we no longer have those manuscripts.

Not only that, but the earliest manuscripts we have were written many years after the events described - time enough for errors, editing, adding and subtracting from the stories. No one knows how much was embellished.

[Wondergirl]

Your prejudice is revealing itself. No one has suggested we bash anyone with anything. No one has suggested we avoid making connections with people. Life does enough bashing, so people don't need anymore of that, but it's the Bible that tells of the saving power of Jesus through the grace and love of God.

And what do you do with that Bible? -- hold it high above your head as you shout out verses to passersby?

The very Bible that you seem to know so little of, and that you seem at times to nearly despise, is the book that contains the message that we preach. No Bible...no message.

"The very Bible that [I] know so little of"??? "and that [I] seem at times to nearly despise"??? GOOD GRIEF!!!!!

I can't imagine that you, being a Lutheran, would be so opposed to the core belief of Luther himself. “He [Christ] died for me. He made His righteousness mine and made my sin His own; and if He made my sin His own, then I do not have it, and I am free.”

I'm speechless upon reading this.

[jlisenbe]

And what do you do with that Bible? -- hold it high above your head as you shout out verses to passersby?

Again, your prejudice displays itself. And you want to accuse me of bashing? Perhaps you need to hear the same lesson I gave to Athos about following your own advice before giving it to others.

I can't imagine that you, being a Lutheran, would be so opposed to the core belief of Luther himself. “He [Christ] died for me. He made His righteousness mine and made my sin His own; and if He made my sin His own, then I do not have it, and I am free.”

I'm speechless upon reading this.

I asked you what you thought the gospel was. You wouldn't answer. All I can get from you is that you think we should have a personal connection made with people. I agree with that, but I still don't know what you believe the gospel message is.

[Athos]

Perhaps you need to hear the same lesson I gave to Athos about following your own advice before giving it to others.

You giving lessons to anyone is laughable. Tell us about the lesson children receive based on your Bible who are unbelievers, and that WG described so well.

I still don't know what you [WG] believe the gospel message is.

She sure doesn't believe children who are unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment. But you do.

[paraclete]

Athos, what is your fixation on hell, Jesus told us to believe on him, therefore the issue of hell is resolved

[Athos]

Athos, what is your fixation on hell, Jesus told us to believe on him, therefore the issue of hell is resolved

I don't have a fixation on it, JL has the fixation.

It's certainly resolved in my mind, but I wouldn't call believing the great majority of humanity is condemned to hell if they are not believers a resolution. I'd call it a sick mind.

[paraclete]

I don't have a fixation on it, JL has the fixation.

It's certainly resolved in my mind, but I wouldn't call believing the great majority of humanity is condemned to hell if they are not believers a resolution. I'd call it a sick mind.

Buddy, obviously you have decided the path you want to take, get over it and move on

[talaniman]

Since HC has been absolved of wrong doing can we turn to the dufus and his kids email uses, and security clearance issues? While we're at it did anyone catch the ruling on the dufus charities?

[Athos]

Buddy, obviously you have decided the path you want to take, get over it and move on

Buddy, you failed to respond to my reply to you. What am I to think? Are you the same as jl on this subject?

Jl self-claims a life of educating the young. Don't you think it is important to identify his horror stories that he's poisoning the young minds with?

It's not something one gets over and moves on. Representing Christianity and Christ as some sort of monstrosity who creates people then sends them to hell for eternity is pretty weird, don't you think?

(Sorry, Tal. The issue is important to me.)

[jlisenbe]

He might be as tired of your lying as I am.

[Athos]

Since HC has been absolved of wrong doing can we turn to the dufus and his kids email uses, and security clearance issues? While we're at it did anyone catch the ruling on the dufus charities?

The idiot once proclaimed, "I WILL NEVER SETTLE ANY LAWSUIT!"

Since saying that, so far he has settled $27 MILLION worth of lawsuits calling him a fraud. Repeat - $27 MILLION.

His charity fraud spent tens of thousands on, get this, a PORTRAIT OF HIMSELF TO HANG IN ONE OF HIS CLUBS. Hard to believe, but true.

He [paraclete] might be as tired of your lying as I am.

Put your big boy pants on and tell where the lie is when I report that you believe unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment.

We await your answer.

[jlisenbe]

She sure doesn't believe children who are unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment. But you do.

There is one. I have explained to you in the past, repeatedly, that I do not believe that children are held responsible. So you when you say I believe that, you are lying. Of course you can easily defend yourself by finding the quote where I said that.

Here is another. Tal responded to a quote of mine. The quote was, "No one has suggested we bash anyone with anything."
He responded by saying, "WG did and I concur." The question concerned suggesting that we bash people. Tal said that WG did and he concurred, so WG suggested it, according to him, and he concurred. Now I know he misstated his reply. My answer was tongue in cheek, also known as humor to the humor impaired.

To you, of course, it was a "Good example of how jl distorts what others say." That was completely false.

And then of course was your comment that D.C. was "filled" with right wingers, which of course was a crazy comment, poorly worded at best. Rather than just learning to laugh at yourself a bit and admitting you were mistaken, you went off on a long diatribe that the problem was not with the writer, but with the reader not being able to ferret out your meaning.

And I'm asking myself, "Why do you bother to reply to this person?" It's senseless.

Still waiting on your reply to Matthew 25. I'll make a deal with you. When you respond to Matthew 25, then I'll reply to your post. Until then, we are too much like matches and gasoline. Not a good mix.

[Athos]

There is one. I have explained to you in the past, repeatedly, that I do not believe that children are held responsible. So you when you say I believe that, you are lying.

ONE? Now you're saying children are not responsible. Ok, how about an old lady working a rice paddy in China who never heard of Jesus? Is she responsible? How about any number of examples who never heard of Jesus? People from thousands of years ago? Need I go on? What about all those millions, maybe billions?

My answer was tongue in cheek

Baloney. If it were, you would have said something. You said nothing until you were caught.

To you, of course, it was a "Good example of how jl distorts what others say.

You got that right.

And then of course was your comment that D.C. was "filled" with right wingers, which of course was a crazy comment,

That was previously discussed and decided upon. You lost. We'll add sore-loser to your title.

And I'm asking myself, "Why do you bother to reply to this person?" It's senseless.

That's not the first time you've said that. You've yet to live up to it. I wonder why? Could it be you're beginning to recognize how absurd your belief in hell for unbelievers is?

Still waiting on your reply to Matthew 25. I'll make a deal with you.

Sorry, I'll never make a deal with someone who supports Trump. You probably read The Art of the Deal.

When you respond to Matthew 25, then I'll reply to your post.

I'll respond when I respond. Rest assured, it won't be too much longer.

[jlisenbe]

Still saying "filled with" means "hardly any"? Strange.

I'll respond when I respond. Rest assured, it won't be too much longer.

I wait patiently.

[jlisenbe]

Just to be clear on all of this, my goal on this board, and in life in general, is to attempt as best I can to point out the truth, especially truth in the moral and spiritual sense as found in the Bible. I accept it all as the Word of God for a variety of good reasons. Now others here don't, and that is their choice. But if someone says, for instance, that Paul was gay, I ask for scriptural support for that. If someone says gay marriage is fine or contends there is no hell, then I ask for scriptural support for those positions as well. If someone wants to respond, "I believe xxx and I don't care what the Bible says," then at least that is an honest reply, but to suggest you have the will of God on a subject and then prove unable to support that position with scripture is mistaken.

I do not desire to live in the place of saying that I believe in the parts of the Bible that agree with my beliefs, but reject the parts that don't. To do so places my opinions above the principles of the Bible, and I think that is incredibly arrogant. That approach has a cousin named "figurative". Now there are certainly scriptures that are to be taken figuratively, and the disciples actually pointed in John 16:29 (Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech.") But many people extend that principle to any scripture with which they disagree by casually, and frequently unthinkingly, describing it as simply figurative or metaphorical. In either case, we are back to placing our own opinions above those of the Bible. So for me, saying that I believe in what the Bible says is quite sufficient. It is not just "some old book" to me. If I believed otherwise, I would throw it in the trashcan. If it is not the Word of God, then it is useless.

I have my own struggles to deal with and don't believe in bashing those who are likewise struggling. On the other hand, if you name the name of Christ, then you should be able to defend your views scripturally. To point out morality as found in the Bible is not bashing. To ask someone to support his/her views is not bashing. To say that the plain and clear teaching of scripture is that Christ is the sole source of salvation for those who have faith in His lovely, wonderful and amazing name is not bashing.

As to politics, I view Trump and the repubs to be the lessor of two evils, so I will support him and them until something better comes along. I do not have great hope for that happening. The last "knights in shining armor" I saw on the political stage were Thatcher and Reagan, and even they had their warts. Most of it is an ugly power game. Genuine leadership is rare.

[talaniman]

May I ask what that has to do with pointing out the flaws of others, and balking when they return that favor? Our faiths and the path we take to get there is between an individual and his God, as are his words, actions, and behavior. We each can only do as our spirits move us, so who cares if another thinks we move in the wrong direction or the wrong speed?

Your political choices suck though, but so what? You think mine suck too, and that's just the way it is, so deal with it, and so will I.

[jlisenbe]

May I ask what that has to do with pointing out the flaws of others, and balking when they return that favor? Our faiths and the path we take to get there is between an individual and his God, as are his words, actions, and behavior. We each can only do as our spirits move us, so who cares if another thinks we move in the wrong direction or the wrong speed?

Fair enough. I try to contend for positions and doctrine and not so much attacking people, but I imagine I fall short at times.

Your political choices suck though, but so what? You think mine suck too, and that's just the way it is, so deal with it, and so will I.

I think that's why we get along. I admire your candor. I get irritated with people who won't answer simple questions and that frustration gets out of hand sometimes. It bothers me to try and interact with someone who gets so hypercritical and yet won't answer a simple question. With you, on the other hand, I always know where you stand, even if you are sometimes standing on my foot!!

[talaniman]

Excuse me for that! I think you see me coming and put your foot in the way. 8D Or is it my jolly desposition you admire so much? 80

[jlisenbe]

Or is it my jolly desposition you admire so much?

That HAS to be it!