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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #281

    Nov 11, 2019, 11:52 AM
    WHOA-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A!!!! Let me get this straight. In plain language --- you do NOT believe that unbeleivers go to hell for eternal punishment. Is that correct? Why did it take you so many months to finally say that? If, in fact, that is your position now, I congratulate you.
    You are getting confused. Saying unbelievers go to hell is not the same thing as saying that is WHY they go to hell. They do not go because of unbelief. They go because of breaking the laws of God. If you would take the time to read carefully, you would see that I stated that very thing above.

    "People perish because they have broken God's laws and are guilty before Him..It is by faith in the finished work of Christ that we are rescued from judgement and given free access to God. People are condemned for sin, but saved by faith.

    No, whether people break God's laws or they don't, ALL people perish, even saints and holy people.
    That seems to be a very strange statement. Wouldn't even a casual reading of John 3:16 show you that? Perhaps you thought I meant "perish" as in "die"? I meant it to be used as it is in the John passage.


    That is your religious belief, it is not the belief of many millions of other people."
    It is the teaching of the Bible. I blundered across this in 2 Thessalonians this morning. "when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with [f]His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified [g]in His [h]saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed."


    That does not change the FACT that the earliest manuscript is from the 3rd century, time enough to edit/embellish the Gospel to be in tune with the understanding of Christ at that time.
    You changed the subject. I replied to this statement. "Jl's reply was a little misleading. He may not be aware of some facts about the Gospel of Matthew. The work is attributed to Matthew but there's no evidence he actually wrote it." That statement is not even close to being accurate.

    As to the date of Matthew, the third century only applies if you are looking for complete manuscripts. Papayrus P104 is a small fragment of Matthew dated to the second century. And if you are going to apply your standard of reliability to all of ancient writings, then you can't depend on any of it. The textual evidence for the NT is fantastically greater than that of other ancient texts. Nothing else even comes close. The textual evidence for the accurate copying of the NT is also tremendous.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #282

    Nov 11, 2019, 12:03 PM
    Wondergirl, if you don't want to answer questions, then don't you think you shouldn't ask them? That's really a strange approach.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #283

    Nov 11, 2019, 12:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Wondergirl, if you don't want to answer questions, then don't you think you shouldn't ask them? That's really a strange approach.
    I HAVE answered!
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #284

    Nov 11, 2019, 12:22 PM
    This is what you call an answer???

    Why do you continue to hit me with this and wonder what I believe? I'm a preacher's kid, for years a Lutheran grade school teacher, a Sunday school teacher, and an adult Bible class teacher, a psychotherapist who is always ready to bring into the discussion Jesus' two greatest commandments.
    The question was what you believed about what Jesus said in Matthew 25. You have not answered.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #285

    Nov 11, 2019, 01:35 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    This is what you call an answer???



    The question was what you believed about what Jesus said in Matthew 25. You have not answered.
    I figured you'd connect the dots.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #286

    Nov 11, 2019, 01:41 PM
    I did. No answer. But you can just come out and explicitly answer it whenever you are ready. For that matter, even hinting at an answer would be a step forward.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #287

    Nov 11, 2019, 01:45 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I did. No answer.
    wonderful now we can move on from switch and bait
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #288

    Nov 11, 2019, 01:50 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I did. No answer. But you can just come out and explicitly answer it whenever you are ready. For that matter, even hinting at an answer would be a step forward.
    I DID answer it!!!!!! I'm guessing you want to make sure all my i's are dotted and t's are crossed so I don't end up in that hellfire forever.

    Btw, where's trump going to end up?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #289

    Nov 11, 2019, 02:26 PM
    I DID answer it!!!!!! I'm guessing you want to make sure all my i's are dotted and t's are crossed so I don't end up in that hellfire forever.

    Btw, where's trump going to end up?
    Wow. I don't know what else to say but "wow". Incredible that you actually seem to believe that the reply below really contains an answer to the question of what you thought about the words of Christ in the Matthew 25 passage.

    Why do you continue to hit me with this and wonder what I believe? I'm a preacher's kid, for years a Lutheran grade school teacher, a Sunday school teacher, and an adult Bible class teacher, a psychotherapist who is always ready to bring into the discussion Jesus' two greatest commandments.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #290

    Nov 11, 2019, 02:51 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You're asking me, so here's my answer. It's all about gods, but only one can be about God. Choose wisely. The essentials of the Christian faith are so wildly different from other religions that they cannot be reconciled.
    I suspect there are fundies like you who don't want it reconciled. Of course I think it the case on all sides even though the majority have lived in peace and prosperity for centuries like good humans should despite their differences. I think that's what a loving God that I understand requires most and not the predilection for some humans to castigate the others over contrived BS! This is the essence of respect and dignity in my view and a foundation for peace between the tribes, so while I reject your premise for non reconciliation as to wild a difference, I must point out the commonality that binds us...our shared humanity.

    Even the Catholics and Protestants have ceased hostilities so what was up with that bloody conflict amongst Christians? Hopefully in time you will evolve to that level of human enlightenment. Embrace the love and reject the hate as your God has clearly directed you. I fail to see what's so hard about that.

    I echo WG's question of is the dufus going to hell for his sins or will we get justice for his crimes?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #291

    Nov 11, 2019, 03:53 PM
    Even the Catholics and Protestants have ceased hostilities so what was up with that bloody conflict amongst Christians? Hopefully in time you will evolve to that level of human enlightenment. Embrace the love and reject the hate as your God has clearly directed you. I fail to see what's so hard about that.
    You are confusing two different issues.

    I echo WG's question of is the dufus going to hell for his sins or will we get justice for his crimes?
    It always amuses me how so many people are convinced it's the other guy who should be judged.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #292

    Nov 11, 2019, 04:17 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Wow. I don't know what else to say but "wow". Incredible that you actually seem to believe that the reply below really contains an answer to the question of what you thought about the words of Christ in the Matthew 25 passage.
    Who made you interpreter, chief inquisitor, judge, and jury? Doesn't that same Bible also say something about this sort of thing?

    P.S. This isn't how to be a fisher of men (and women).
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #293

    Nov 11, 2019, 06:06 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You are confusing two different issues.
    HOW?

    It always amuses me how so many people are convinced it's the other guy who should be judged.
    Glad you're amused and so am I at you ducking and dodging not rocks, but questions. This whole thread was hijacked by your scripture quoting about who gets judged and how and now you seek to turn it around to us being the judge.

    Drop the crap Slick, and answer the question why don't you? Where do YOU think the dufus is going, heaven or you know that other place with the fire for criminals, liars, cheats, adulterers, and unbelieving heathens.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #294

    Nov 11, 2019, 06:19 PM
    HOW?
    You are confusing the exclusivity of the Christian faith with being hateful. They are not the same.

    Glad you're amused and so am I at you ducking and dodging not rocks, but questions. This whole thread was hijacked by your scripture quoting about who gets judged and how and now you seek to turn it around to us being the judge.

    Drop the crap Slick, and answer the question why don't you? Where do YOU think the dufus is going, heaven or you know that other place with the fire for criminals, liars, cheats, adulterers, and unbelieving heathens.
    Why is he guilty before God but you are not? The two of you are in exactly in the same boat.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #295

    Nov 11, 2019, 07:13 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You are confusing the exclusivity of the Christian faith with being hateful. They are not the same.



    Why is he guilty before God but you are not? The two of you are in exactly in the same boat.
    I can go with ALL humans in the same boat and overlook the reluctance to answer according to your scripture therefore effectively dodging the question, but that confusing the exclusivity of the Christian faith with being hateful is a bunch of malarkey. If you don't know say so, if you cannot explain, or express say so, but don't insult me with double talk!

    PS

    You are in the boat with us right?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #296

    Nov 11, 2019, 07:15 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You are confusing the exclusivity of the Christian faith with being hateful. They are not the same.
    The Christian faith is exclusive? If one isn't Christian (hmmm, wonder what kind and how much), one is headed for everlasting hellfire?
    Why is he guilty before God but you are not? The two of you are in exactly in the same boat.
    We're talking about Trump, and no one else. His daily misbehavior is suspect.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #297

    Nov 11, 2019, 07:37 PM
    I can go with ALL humans in the same boat and overlook the reluctance to answer according to your scripture therefore effectively dodging the question, but that confusing the exclusivity of the Christian faith with being hateful is a bunch of malarkey. If you don't know say so, if you cannot explain, or express say so, but don't insult me with double talk!
    There is no insult intended. We are all guilty before God which makes the question about Trump silly. Only in Christ is there forgiveness. That's what makes the Christian faith exclusive. Jesus said that no one comes to the Father but through Him. That's as exclusive as you can get. Either that, or Jesus was completely mistaken.

    So tell me, Tal. Are you guilty? If Trump is to face judgement, then aren't you as well? That's not asked in a finger pointing way. Just an exercise in thinking.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #298

    Nov 11, 2019, 09:06 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You are getting confused. Saying unbelievers go to hell is not the same thing as saying that is WHY they go to hell. They do not go because of unbelief. They go because of breaking the laws of God. If you would take the time to read carefully, you would see that I stated that very thing above.
    I'm not a bit confused. For months you have been supporting "unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment". Then in your last post, you walked it back a bit by the sophistry of introducing "WHY' into the equation. Then you changed it all by now saying "They go because of breaking the laws of God". You charge me with not being to read carefully. Yet you NEVER said that before. Your ethics, or lack thereof, get worse and worse.

    To the new charge: read my lips, unbelief is NOT breaking the laws of God. Is God just waiting up there to swoop that old Chinese lady working the rice paddy to die so he can immediately cast her into the fires of your hell? Good grief, man, use your head. God gave you a brain for discernment. Start discerning.

    People perish because they have broken God's laws and are guilty before Him.
    No they don't. People perish because of sickness, old age, accident and a myriad other ways. Didn't we already do this?

    Perhaps you thought I meant "perish" as in "die"?
    Yes, that is the accepted, normal, common meaning of the word in English. If it means eternal punishment in hell, I'm sure the proper words would have been used.

    I blundered across this in 2 Thessalonians this morning. "when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with [f]His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified [g]in His [h]saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed."
    Wow, this threat is a beauty. "Eternal destruction" - you sure get riled up when you get tied up in discussion. What would you guys do without threats? Probably gain a few more converts. But it's not really about converts, is it?

    gospel according to Matthew but there's no evidence he actually wrote it." That statement is not even close to being accurate.
    It's perfectly accurate. Check with your Bible scholar pals.

    As to the date of Matthew, the third century only applies if you are looking for complete manuscripts. Papayrus P104 is a small fragment of Matthew dated to the second century.
    That's precisely, almost word for word, what I said!

    And if you are going to apply your standard of reliability to all of ancient writings
    No, just to Matthew.

    then you can't depend on any of it. The textual evidence for the NT is fantastically greater than that of other ancient texts. Nothing else even comes close. The textual evidence for the accurate copying of the NT is also tremendous.
    I've heard this argument before. It's irrelevant - other ancient writings have nothing to do with the NT - and it usually emerges as a last attempt to salvage an argument re Biblical accuracy.

    My disagreement is with JL's erstwhile belief that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment. If he wishes to change "unbelievers" to breakers of God's law, I think he has a perfect right to do that and I would not dispute his belief.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #299

    Nov 12, 2019, 03:34 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    There is no insult intended. We are all guilty before God which makes the question about Trump silly. Only in Christ is there forgiveness. That's what makes the Christian faith exclusive. Jesus said that no one comes to the Father but through Him. That's as exclusive as you can get. Either that, or Jesus was completely mistaken.

    So tell me, Tal. Are you guilty? If Trump is to face judgement, then aren't you as well? That's not asked in a finger pointing way. Just an exercise in thinking.
    I will let God handle his business the way he sees fit, I have no control over that, and I suggest you do the same. I'm comfortable letting MAN'S law deal with the dufus. It's amusing watching his sycophants twist themselves in knots defending him, as more is revealed daily, and tomorrow starts the public hearings for those that haven't been keeping up.

    I don't question God, just the humans. They are flawed and can screw up anything and that's what I am guilty of, being a flawed human.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #300

    Nov 12, 2019, 06:00 AM
    That's precisely, almost word for word, what I said!
    Nope. You never mentioned the second century document. Not true.

    It's perfectly accurate. Check with your Bible scholar pals.
    I'll let you argue that one with Irenaeus. Is he enough of a scholar for you???

    And if you are going to apply your standard of reliability to all of ancient writings
    No, just to Matthew.
    Intellectual lunacy.

    then you can't depend on any of it. The textual evidence for the NT is fantastically greater than that of other ancient texts. Nothing else even comes close. The textual evidence for the accurate copying of the NT is also tremendous.
    I've heard this argument before. It's irrelevant - other ancient writings have nothing to do with the NT - and it usually emerges as a last attempt to salvage an argument re Biblical accuracy.
    It's irrelevant only to you. People who actually know what they are talking about value that argument highly and see the consistency in it. A person would have to be absolutely blind to question the NT over a 100 year gap and accept Plato despite a 1300 year gap. It would be sheer stupidity.

    My disagreement is with JL's erstwhile belief that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment. If he wishes to change "unbelievers" to breakers of God's law, I think he has a perfect right to do that and I would not dispute his belief.
    It's all very simple. You are basically putting words in my mouth and then trying to hold me responsible for what you said. It's a paper thin strategy that an eighth grader can see through. Again, I have never said that unbelief sends people to hell. And the quote I gave that you went apoplectic about is from the Bible, so your argument is with the Bible, not with me. That has been the case for months. Now you have elected to reject the Bible. That's your choice. If the Bible is accurate, then you will someday live to bitterly regret that decision.

    Just give it up, Athos. You were wrong about Aquinas. Somewhat right about the earliest manuscript of Matthew. Wrong about the authorship of Matthew. Wrong about my views on who goes to hell. Wrong about the significance of the NT time gap. Wrong about the use of "perish" in John 3:16. You have arguments that cannot be supported. Give it up.

    I'm comfortable letting MAN'S law deal with the dufus.
    Tal, you are the one who brought up the question about Trump going to hell, not me.

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