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talaniman · Nov 10, 2019, 07:09 AM

Less brimestone and hellfire, more empathy and support. Bashing comes in my opinion when you quote scripture and leave no quarter for questions or interpretation or context as to relevancy in modern life. It says what it says and that's it, will never work on those that are not sheeple looking for a shepherd.

jlisenbe · Nov 10, 2019, 08:08 AM

will never work on those that are not sheeple looking for a shepherd.

You are right with that. It has no appeal for those who do not want to have a shepherd.

talaniman · Nov 10, 2019, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You are right with that. It has no appeal for those who do not want to have a shepherd.

Or are happy with the one they have.

Wondergirl · Nov 10, 2019, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

Less brimestone and hellfire, more empathy and support. Bashing comes in my opinion when you quote scripture and leave no quarter for questions or interpretation or context as to relevancy in modern life. It says what it says and that's it, will never work on those that are not sheeple looking for a shepherd.

Perfectly said!

Years age, my dad's congregation had a special program called "Each One Reach One." I wonder how each of you here would instruct the congregation members on the best, most effective way to do this.

Vacuum7 · Nov 10, 2019, 11:08 AM

Its what I have always felt was the inevitable route to your salvation: Its personal and it is a path you walk alone.....the path you take to your destination isn't nearly as important as your commitment to arrive at your destination. Saul and David had the most serendipitous route EVER to salvation, and they made it......that should give us ALL hope to accomplish the same!

Athos · Nov 10, 2019, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Its what I have always felt was the inevitable route to your salvation: Its personal and it is a path you walk alone.....

Good point, V7. As Jesus said, "There are many mansions in my Father's house".

Athos · Nov 10, 2019, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I've never run across anyone as afraid to go on the record with a position as you are. So your position is that you don't like my position? How strange. Perhaps you are running from the call of Christ?

As usual, when you run out of your silly arguments, you attack the messenger. Sometimes, I really, really wonder why I bother with you.

jlisenbe · Nov 10, 2019, 01:21 PM

As usual, when you run out of your silly arguments, you attack the messenger. Sometimes, I really, really wonder why I bother with you.

I would just like to know your position. You quoted Aquinas and claimed it supported your position, a position which you seem unable to describe. So far it is that you don't like my position.

Or are happy with the one they have.

I thought that people looking for a shepherd were "sheeple". So these "sheeple" not looking for a shepherd already have one? Does that include you, Tal? If so, who is it?

Athos · Nov 10, 2019, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I would just like to know your position. You quoted Aquinas and claimed it supported your position, a position which you seem unable to describe. So far it is that you don't like my position.

My position - supported by Aquinas - is that it is false to state that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment. It couldn't be any clearer.

You take the "pro" side. I take the "con" side.

I don't know why you insist I am unable to describe my position. Here it is for the umpteenth time, described as clearly as I can possibly make it.

talaniman · Nov 10, 2019, 02:00 PM

I thought that people looking for a shepherd were "sheeple". So these "sheeple" not looking for a shepherd already have one? Does that include you, Tal? If so, who is it?

Of course it includes me, as I have stated repeatedly I have a relationship with a God that I understand and am GRATEFUL for it. I put nothing and no one between US!

jlisenbe · Nov 10, 2019, 02:06 PM

My position - supported by Aquinas - is that it is false to state that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment. It couldn't be any clearer.

Hmmm. Is that the same Aquinas who said this? "Men are bound to that without which they cannot obtain salvation. Now it is manifest that no one can obtain salvation but through Christ; wherefore the Apostle says (Rom. 5:18): "As by the offense of one unto all men unto condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men unto justification of life." But for this end is Baptism conferred on a man, that being regenerated thereby, he may be incorporated in Christ, by becoming His member: wherefore it is written (Gal. 3:27): "As many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ." Consequently it is manifest that all are bound to be baptized: and that without Baptism there is no salvation for men."

I don't agree with his comment about baptism, but that statement sure affirms that salvation only comes through Christ. But bear in mind that this whole discussion started when I said, "Christ is the sole source of salvation." You claimed that, "This claim has been rejected by mainstream Christianity beginning with the Catholic Church in the 12th century." Well, Aquinas (13th century) plainly does not support that position. Neither did citing the 1959 Vatican 2.

But your position, to be clear, is that unbelievers do not go to hell? Can we deduce from your position that belief is basically unnecessary?

Wondergirl · Nov 10, 2019, 02:09 PM

What is hell? And what does everlasting mean?

jlisenbe · Nov 10, 2019, 02:17 PM

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

talaniman · Nov 10, 2019, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

You and the dufus on the southern border. Should you be taking heed?

jlisenbe · Nov 10, 2019, 02:29 PM

I'd still like to know if you have a shepherd.

Wondergirl · Nov 10, 2019, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

I wasn't looking for a canned answer.

jlisenbe · Nov 10, 2019, 02:41 PM

I wasn't looking for a canned answer.

Sorry that the words of Jesus are, to you, a "canned answer". Wow. What a reply.

Wondergirl · Nov 10, 2019, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Sorry that the words of Jesus are, to you, a "canned answer". Wow. What a reply.

I was hoping for YOUR take on what is hell and everlasting. I own at least six Bibles in English and several auf Deutsch.

jlisenbe · Nov 10, 2019, 02:45 PM

I gave you what Jesus said. I can't do any better than that. His words are good enough for me.

Wondergirl · Nov 10, 2019, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I gave you what Jesus said. I can't do any better than that. His words are good enough for me.

Hell: WHO goes there? WHAT is it? WHEN do they go there? WHY do they go there?

Is everlasting the same as forever and without end?

And yeah, what about this part as pertains to our southern border: 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’