[Vacuum7]

Generalissimo Francisco Franco's remains will be removed from entombment on Thursday, 10/24/'19: This is just another example of the whitewashing of history that many nations all over the world have gotten into as of late. In the U.S. South, there has been a move to tear down Confederate monuments. In Afghanistan, the Taliban tore down Buddha statues. in Syria, ISIS tore down Churches and tore up the ruins of ancient Roman civilization. This mentality is a sickness. The zealotry of the Third World can be attributed to religious craziness but in civilized First World nations like the U.S. and Spain, what is the mental breakdown that drives the whitewashing of history?

[talaniman]

Maybe in the civilized world the due process of law has been followed and a lot of the oppositions to such monuments to dictators, and instigators of a lot of bloodshed have won and want the record corrected accordingly, at least that seems to be the case of Spain. In the US though descendants of those that suffered through a bloody war to decide whether the nation would continue the course of slavery or not, find great objection to the losing factions making heroes of those that wanted to continue the practice, and glorify that horror many endured.

Now that's very different from those actions of as you described terrorist zealots wiping out history I think, and I'm not ready to make those comparisons even though I have to agree that humans seem to have lost their frigging minds, especially in our own country Vac, or would you prefer V7?

[jlisenbe]

I do see your point on the Confederate memorials. I imagine if I was black then I'd have a different point of view towards them. However, it just keeps the pot stirred and a little compromise here and there would be helpful. Taking down a statue does not improve the life of a single American by even a penny. New Orleans likes to trumpet the fact that they took down a rather large Confederate statue, and yet they still have one of the highest murder rates in the country. Maybe taking some steps that are more than just symbolic would be a good idea.

[paraclete]

Maybe we could dig up some more world heros and put them on exhibiton or better still inter them in unmarked graves. But how do you decide who is a hero since all are infamous among their opponents? Hilter knew what he was doing when he settled for a quiet private death

[talaniman]

I do see your point on the Confederate memorials. I imagine if I was black then I'd have a different point of view towards them. However, it just keeps the pot stirred and a little compromise here and there would be helpful. Taking down a statue does not improve the life of a single American by even a penny. New Orleans likes to trumpet the fact that they took down a rather large Confederate statue, and yet they still have one of the highest murder rates in the country. Maybe taking some steps that are more than just symbolic would be a good idea.

It's not just a monetary value one seeks through the struggle for a modicum of dignity and self respect and if that struggle takes years to bear fruit the is that not a compromise in of itself? Removing confederate statutes doesn't mean the struggle is over, just that a small step has been achieved and more pot stirring is needed, and maybe that the price to pay for a place at the table, or the right to be free, justice, and defining the American way that starts at equal protection under the law that extends to all.

For those in the struggle any struggle rally achieving even a small step is more than just symbolic and priceless.

Maybe we could dig up some more world heros and put them on exhibiton or better still inter them in unmarked graves. But how do you decide who is a hero since all are infamous among their opponents? Hilter knew what he was doing when he settled for a quiet private death

The process takes many years sometimes hopefully peacefully through the court process. Hitler saved a lot of time and hassle after causing all that death and destruction, unlike Khadafy, Mussolini, and Saddam. The peoples justice was much more swift and decisive.

[Vacuum7]

Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

Here is my view of it....and it may be a bit sideways or perverted, as my wife will tell you that most of viewpoint are: Why do you WANT to forget any of this ESPECIALLY if your on the other side of it? I mean, I'll never be a Negro but trying to put myself in their mindset, wouldn't you get more inspiration out of seeing the statues of those who were DEFEATED in the attempt to keep chains on you? My thoughts on the reasons for the Civil War no-withstanding (I believe it was a whole lot more to do with preventing SUCCESSION than it was freeing slaves), the South lost the Civil War (some parts it is called the War Of Northern Aggression) and their "homeland", so to speak, occupied by the victors.....and the free slaves were part of that victory: The Confederate monument certainly are not a "celebration" of victory but the mourning of loss and honoring dead soldiers. Like jlisenbe, I can't really come to terms with the Confederate monuments issue in a firm sense.

If you look at this issue from the perspective of the Jews, they have a totally different take on this than anyone, possibly anyone in the world: THE JEWS DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO EVER FORGET.....EVER! They do not want history whitewashed: They want you to remember the Holocaust with them and they don't any of the remnants, pictures, ANYTHING to ever be done away with, not ever. Is there a strategy there? Is there something to learn from the Jew about how they process and handle the Holocaust? PROBABLY! The state of Israel has parlayed what they endured at the hands of Hitler into a legitimate STATE in the M.E., with much support, particularly from the United States. And whenever anyone opposes any move they make in Israel or the M.E., the Jews are VERY QUICK TO EVOKE THE REMEMBRANCE OF THE HOLOCAUST......remembering the Holocaust has become a "justification", of sorts, for just about everything they do. I think there is something to be learned here.

[paraclete]

Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

Here is my view of it....and it may be a bit sideways or perverted, as my wife will tell you that most of viewpoint are: Why do you WANT to forget any of this ESPECIALLY if your on the other side of it? I mean, I'll never be a Negro but trying to put myself in their mindset, wouldn't you get more inspiration out of seeing the statues of those who were DEFEATED in the attempt to keep chains on you? My thoughts on the reasons for the Civil War no-withstanding (I believe it was a whole lot more to do with preventing SUCCESSION than it was freeing slaves), the South lost the Civil War (some parts it is called the War Of Northern Aggression) and their "homeland", so to speak, occupied by the victors.....and the free slaves were part of that victory: The Confederate monument certainly are not a "celebration" of victory but the mourning of loss and honoring dead soldiers. Like jlisenbe, I can't really come to terms with the Confederate monuments issue in a firm sense.

If you look at this issue from the perspective of the Jews, they have a totally different take on this than anyone, possibly anyone in the world: THE JEWS DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO EVER FORGET.....EVER! They do not want history whitewashed: They want you to remember the Holocaust with them and they don't any of the remnants, pictures, ANYTHING to ever be done away with, not ever. Is there a strategy there? Is there something to learn from the Jew about how they process and handle the Holocaust? PROBABLY! The state of Israel has parlayed what they endured at the hands of Hitler into a legitimate STATE in the M.E., with much support, particularly from the United States. And whenever anyone opposes any move they make in Israel or the M.E., the Jews are VERY QUICK TO EVOKE THE REMEMBRANCE OF THE HOLOCAUST......remembering the Holocaust has become a "justification", of sorts, for just about everything they do. I think there is something to be learned here.

Vac if your wife thinks your viewpoint is perverted maybe we don't want to hear it, but frankly, after listening to you maybe you should let her post

[talaniman]

Yeah I can see the Jews tolerating the swastika and stautes of Hitler, or those that praise him as a hero, and some do.

Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

I like mustard greens with smoked turkey leg meat falling off the bone with onions, to go with my cornbread. Any greens will do and we often mix them, and vinegar is a must.

[Vacuum7]

Talaniman: Honestly, I hadn't thought of it in the terms you described.....that puts a different light on it, for sure!

If you like turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread, you got to be all right!

[Athos]

Talaniman: You can call me V7, Vac, or just about anything you want to as long as you call me for supper.....especially if you got turnip greens, vinegar, and cornbread on the table!

That's as old as the hills, but still funny. It was unexpected.

I'll never be a Negro but ...

Negro? Did you really say NEGRO?

is called the War Of Northern Aggression

Fort Sumter?

the mourning of loss and honoring dead soldiers.

I think there's an argument to be made that those statues - all military as far as I know - are about "mourning the loss and honoring dead soldiers". Once visiting Antietam, I saw the soldiers from both sides in that battle buried in a common graveyard. I can also understand why African-Americans see it differently.

THE JEWS DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO EVER FORGET...

That's the same take the South has re their statues.

The state of Israel has parlayed what they endured at the hands of Hitler into a legitimate STATE

Don't dismiss the Balfour Declaration 40 years earlier.

remembering the Holocaust has become a "justification", of sorts, I think there is something to be learned here

Yes, there is something to be learned. Like don't allow genocide to take place like Trump is doing with the Kurds.

[Vacuum7]

Athos: Yes, the War Of Northern Aggression is straight-up how the Civil War is referenced in Charleston, S.C.....almost everyone says it.

Same effect on me, as you had at Antietam, when I visited Gettysburg: You suddenly realize how unimportant any political slants are in the presence of such a "heavy", solemn place: Soldiers earned respect, regardless, of which side, because they "gave up everything they had and everything they were EVER going to have."

You know, the case of Israel is not that far dissimilar to that of the Kurds: Both experienced genocide (Kurds and Armenians), just that the Nazis were more efficient with the Jews, and both did not have a homeland, albeit the Jews do now.....similar "place" in history.....The Kurds, though, really don't have a "CHAMPION" to help them that I know about.

[jlisenbe]

I think there's an argument to be made that those statues - all military as far as I know - are about "mourning the loss and honoring dead soldiers". Once visiting Antietam, I saw the soldiers from both sides in that battle buried in a common graveyard. I can also understand why African-Americans see it differently.

For once we basically agree. Haven't been to Antietam, but in the Vicksburg battlefield park many of the states have placed monuments to those who died in the battle. I'm sure the monuments would offend some people, but it still would seem to be a legitimate observation. The courage exhibited by both sides is worthy of notice and emulation. Perhaps we can learn from people that we don't necessarily agree with on all points.

[talaniman]

Athos: Yes, the War Of Northern Aggression is straight-up how the Civil War is referenced in Charleston, S.C.....almost everyone says it.

Even the people of color and descendants of slaves? Or just the white majority? Perspective plays a huge part in the dialogue, and the south was hardly the victim. Southern NEGROES were. Both before and after the Civil War, and still struggling to this day (Okay even in the NORTH too), with a different kind of slavery.

[talaniman]

For once we basically agree. Haven't been to Antietam, but in the Vicksburg battlefield park many of the states have placed monuments to those who died in the battle. I'm sure the monuments would offend some people, but it still would seem to be a legitimate observation. The courage exhibited by both sides is worthy of notice and emulation. Perhaps we can learn from people that we don't necessarily agree with on all points.

I have a lot of sympathy for the rank and file who shed blood, but not for the elites that lead them (In the South).

The names and dates of documented victims are engraved on the panels. More than 4075 documented lynchings of African Americans took place between 1877 and 1950, concentrated in 12 Southern states. In addition, the EJI has published supplementary information about lynchings in several states outside the South. The monument is the first major work in the nation to name and honor these victims.

^[10]

[Athos]

..The Kurds, though, really don't have a "CHAMPION" to help them that I know about.

They did until last week when idiot Trump abandoned them without a moment's notice. In just a few days, he has been responsible for 300,000 Kurds displaced. Only God knows how many will be slaughtered once the Turks move in when the "pause" ends today.

[talaniman]

Are Vlad and Assad coming to be the NEW champion for the Kurds? The Turks might not like that.

[Vacuum7]

Talaniman: As a Southern man, I am happy we have a UNITED STATES, and not a North and South States setup: Succession can't be tolerated.....nor the other stuff that went along with that temporary setup.

Yes, you are right, again: Its not Blacks saying "War Of Northern Aggression" in Charleston.

Recently, I heard that Blacks are, also, getting stupid about a "desire" to separate themselves into their "own" dorms and the like on college campuses.....I guess that they are free to do as they wish, ITS STILL THE LAND OF THE FREE, but, I believe, this is not a direction that they should take.

[talaniman]

It's a very human thing for anyone to retreat to the safety of the tribe when a threat, percieved or real is looming. Doesn't take much for people to percieve a threat, one noghead will do that. Hanging a noose in a tree gets a reaction, or a swasika on someones dorm room door.

Nope doesn't take much at all.

[jlisenbe]

Or students rioting and destroying public property in order to prevent freedom of speech.

[talaniman]

That too JL, and conservatives are not the only ones targeted by such actions. Both overt and covert. Voter suppression comes to mind also.