[jlisenbe]

I have to say it, are you not aware there are more important things going on in the world than getting in touch with yourself. stop being so self obscessed and realise there are riots in Chile, in Hong Kong, there are protest rallies all over the world, people are upset and they are blaming their outbursts on someoneelse

?????

[talaniman]

Clete isn't a student of American political history, like when you start interjecting the gospel scripture into political stuff and change the forum topic for me.

[paraclete]

Clete isn't a student of American political history, like when you start interjecting the gospel scripture into political stuff and change the forum topic for me.

I may be a liitle more a student of your nation's past than you might like, however, this contemporary crap gets my goat. As to the Gospel, Tal, don't see much reference to the US there, as for Scripture, well, The whore of Babylon might fit. What seems to be missing is the idea that God's system and that operating in the world, and in particular in the US, are two very different things.

[talaniman]

As well they should be as living with billions of humans is bound to be tricky even if they followed the same religion or the same secular laws.

[Vacuum7]

Paraclete: If you are saying the U.S. is "off the path of righteousness," I don't think any thinking person, left or Right, could disagree with you: We are becoming Sodom AND Gomorrah! I attribute this derailment to our straying from NATURAL LAW and THE LAWS OF NATURE: If something is not found in nature, it shouldn't be synthetically created to appease the masses. I try to leave the religious aspects out of the clinical discussion, to each their own in that regards: The guideposts for what is RIGHT and WRONG are self-evident and need no delineation....they should come to the consciousness of every living soul as naturally as the unconscious reaction of blinking.

[paraclete]

Paraclete: If you are saying the U.S. is "off the path of righteousness," I don't think any thinking person, left or Right, could disagree with you: We are becoming Sodom AND Gomorrah! I attribute this derailment to our straying from NATURAL LAW and THE LAWS OF NATURE: If something is not found in nature, it shouldn't be synthetically created to appease the masses. I try to leave the religious aspects out of the clinical discussion, to each their own in that regards: The guideposts for what is RIGHT and WRONG are self-evident and need no delineation....they should come to the consciousness of every living soul as naturally as the unconscious reaction of blinking.

You wish it were so, but then, if it were so we would not have need of a savior would we?

[Vacuum7]

Paraclete: You know it.....that cannot be refuted or denied in any way.

[talaniman]

I see the events as just the very bumpy road of progress. If we don't blow the world up, or it gets blown up outside of our influence, then we do have a real chance to get better at living with this reality.

[jlisenbe]

Paraclete: If you are saying the U.S. is "off the path of righteousness," I don't think any thinking person, left or Right, could disagree with you: We are becoming Sodom AND Gomorrah! I attribute this derailment to our straying from NATURAL LAW and THE LAWS OF NATURE: If something is not found in nature, it shouldn't be synthetically created to appease the masses. I try to leave the religious aspects out of the clinical discussion, to each their own in that regards: The guideposts for what is RIGHT and WRONG are self-evident and need no delineation....they should come to the consciousness of every living soul as naturally as the unconscious reaction of blinking.

The challenge is to define "the path of righteousness." You refer to "the laws of nature." Well, the law of nature is for the strong to dominate the weak. That is seen in all of nature. Nature is not a kind place, it is a harsh place. Is that the law you want us to follow?

You also say, "the guideposts for what is right and wrong are self-evident and need no delineation." That is a questionable statement. It is true in some respects but not in others.

Outside of a belief in a transcendent God, there is no foundation for morality. It just becomes a situation where the majority gets to rule, or at least to determine what is right and wrong. Morality is not meant to be a popularity contest.

Clete's reference to a Savior is exactly correct.

[talaniman]

Be nice if we can avoid a war over what the majority wants, and what the minority wants. Hope we have come that far up the evolutionary ladder at least.

[Vacuum7]

jlisenbe: A a Christian man, you know the score: God's hand is control of all things. Man is part of nature as God created everything in nature. God's (fill in the blank for those who may have other religions but the "concept" of God is independent) hand is behind and in control of everything in nature as it is in our lives. You think NATURE is cruel? Its not, it proceeds on a NATURAL TRAJECTORY DEFINED BY GOD...to say that nature is cruel is to say that God is cruel, and we know that is not true. MAN, on the other hand, IS ABSOLUTELY AND EXTREMELY CRUEL: You don't find organized warfare, torture, slavery, or a thousand other proclivities exacted by man anywhere else in nature: MAN has a corner on cruelty not found in nature.

The guideposts in life are well established, and I mean well before our time: Do not the 10 Commandments made these boundaries abundantly clear? The extrapolation of right and wrong in the "human" species is different with respect to our thinking capacities being above those of mere "dumb" animals: Right and Wrong are clear-cut.....where Right and Wrong become less clear is in man's consistent and unrelenting pursuit to skate around and avoid the commitments required in DOING THE RIGHT THING! Right from Wrong is clearly defined, MAN wants the definition to be murky so he can get away with doing WRONG and justify his actions: ITS THAT SIMPLE.

To your point about morality not being a popularity contest: 100% CORRECT! Majority Rule is a common practice and has been since time immortal....it doesn't always mean the majority is RIGHT.....and majority rule doesn't mean that the minority doesn't have rights: such a rights have been guaranteed by man in certain "terms", such as those guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution and, in general, this concept of rights is particularly true in the U.S. where this system is more highly refined: But never forget: RIGHT and WRONG are concepts not of man but of God and are clearly marked in nature.

To Talaniman's point: We have evolved up the ladder....but, every now and then, one or two of the rungs on the ladder break and we DEVOLVE back into our most detestable forms: Humans are problematic wherever they exist.

[jlisenbe]

.to say that nature is cruel is to say that God is cruel, and we know that is not true.

In a fallen world, such as we live in, cruelty abounds. I wonder how many times a day one animal kills another? It is no reflection on God. It is a reflection on the introduction of sin and suffering into the world.

Do not the 10 Commandments made these boundaries abundantly clear?

But that is religion, not natural law and certainly not the law of nature.

Right and Wrong are clear-cut.....where Right and Wrong become less clear is in man's consistent and unrelenting pursuit to skate around and avoid the commitments required in DOING THE RIGHT THING!

But there's the rub. Who gets to decide what is "right" and "wrong" in a secular society? Simple answer. In most cases, it's the guys with the most power. In democracies it can come down to a beauty contest, but even at that, the people with the most power oftentimes prevail.

We have evolved up the ladder.

We have? There were more people killed in war and genocide in the 20th century than it the previous 19 centuries COMBINED! The direction is down the ladder, not up. Only in the influence of the Christian faith do we see progress up the ladder.

[Vacuum7]

SPAIN HAS BECOME A LAND OF COWARDS AND IDIOTS! You can't run away from your past....your past will show you the way forward....it doesn't matter if the past is good or bad...it only matters that you learn from it!

[paraclete]

SPAIN HAS BECOME A LAND OF COWARDS AND IDIOTS! You can't run away from your past....your past will show you the way forward....it doesn't matter if the past is good or bad...it only matters that you learn from it!

Don't be too hard on them, very few fallen empires rise again, I expect a defeatest attitude sets in. In a Thousand years what will we think of you?

[Vacuum7]

Paraclete: Had relatives on my Mother's side, in Spain, that thought Franco was the savior of Spain....and now they want to vanquish his memory.

[talaniman]

They feel the same about ole Jeff Davis in the south. Just curious though Vac, why this dictator was such a hero to your peeps? I guess as was here that heroes depended on whatever side you supported in the struggle for whatever it was.

[Vacuum7]

Talaniman: This all goes back to the Spanish Civil War and Franco's initial resistance to the Republicans.....these relatives were in the city of Toledo (yes, same spelling as the one in Ohio) and it was a Republican held town....conditions were horrible for those living there.....Franco and the Nationalist took aim at taking this town....Story is that when Franco's Nationalist captured the town, this is where he announced he was "Generalissimo".....that day, Franco became a larger than life figure, a shining star on the hill....my relatives always took this event as the cementing of their love for Franco because living conditions immediately got better under the Nationalists/Fascists. I guess you could say that they hooked-up their cart to the Fascist horse and stayed with it...they were just really loyal.....I always heard from my Grandmother: "Franco saved Spain from the Comunistas!"...."When Franco was in charge, you could leave your doors unlocked...it was safe!"

And I was taught other things, as well: Spain's wealth was largely in gold reserves before the Revolution....but the Government, comprised of Republicans, shipped/ferried this reserve to the Soviet Union for "safe-keeping" during the Revolution......of course, when the Fascist won the war, NONE of the gold was ever returned.

[talaniman]

Thanks Vac, I was just a bit curious as I've heard and seen several similar stories of communities and people being uplifted and helped, by hard cold men who ruled with an iron cruel fist against their "enemies". Hard not to idolize one that gives bread for your table, or keeps the trains running on time, no matter what else he does.

Does any of this ring true?

[Vacuum7]

Talaniman: You got it in how you described it: therein lies the grand PARADOX......similar to the dastardly fire ants: Yes, they suck, and I hate them, but as long as they are around my house I won't have termites...PICK YOUR POISON!

Franco got over on Mussolini and Hitler by asking for material help, taking their assistance, and then Mussolini's troops, also, and then not getting Spain embroiled in the AXIS effort: In the end, Franco was a true NATIONALIST (loved Spain first and the Fascist cause/philosophy a distant second).

[paraclete]

In the end, Franco was a true NATIONALIST (loved Spain first and the Fascist cause/philosophy a distant second).

Now you have a similar "true nationalist" in your neck of the woods, will it end with your country bankrupt