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    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 505, Reputation: 54
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    #101

    Oct 17, 2019, 01:11 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    That's a good question. I would answer with two questions.

    1. Is it human?
    2. Is it alive?
    Two questions are not an answer.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,270, Reputation: 154
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    #102

    Oct 17, 2019, 01:15 PM
    Two questions are not an answer.
    It's an answer if you're prepared to think a little bit.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 505, Reputation: 54
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    #103

    Oct 17, 2019, 01:23 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    It's an answer if you're prepared to think a little bit.
    I suggest you do your own thinking and try to come up with an ANSWER.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,270, Reputation: 154
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    #104

    Oct 17, 2019, 01:34 PM
    I did. It's your turn to think, but since you seem unable, I'll do your thinking for you. The answer for the two questions would certainly seem to be "yes". Is it human? Well, if not human, then what? It has to be yes. Plainly it's alive, so that is yes. So if it is human with all the information needed to become fully developed and the complete capacity to do so, and if it is alive, it must be a human life.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,107, Reputation: 10852
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    #105

    Oct 17, 2019, 01:59 PM
    All heath care facilities and doctors offices bill the same way, but why argue with you. The numbers are the numbers. 1/3 of abortions nationwide okay. Who does the rest?

    As we see 2/3 of abortions are done by clinics other than PP, and doctors offices, and by women themselves using available self abortion methods but the bottom line is the decline of abortions which may not be fast enough for some but obviously females are taking advantage of improved contraception and methods.

    Are you shutting down those other clinics doctors and methods too? Maybe in your state for poor women, but obviously there are other means being used besides PP, and abortion clinics.

    Whatever your drinking ain't working so stick to Kool Aid.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I did. It's your turn to think, but since you seem unable, I'll do your thinking for you. The answer for the two questions would certainly seem to be "yes". Is it human? Well, if not human, then what? It has to be yes. Plainly it's alive, so that is yes. So if it is human with all the information needed to become fully developed and the complete capacity to do so, and if it is alive, it must be a human life.
    It's NOT your human and since you had nothing to do with the creation, you have nothing to do with the outcome.
    Athos's Avatar
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    #106

    Oct 17, 2019, 02:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I did. It's your turn to think, but since you seem unable, I'll do your thinking for you.
    Aren't you the one who is so quick to point out the insults others make? And yet, you are the biggest offender here.


    The answer for the two questions would certainly seem to be "yes". Is it human? Well, if not human, then what? It has to be yes.
    Logic is not your strong point. A zygote, you say, has to be human. Why? Because a zygote is human, what else could it be? Amazingly, you have managed to give us three logical fallacies in one example - circular reasoning, tautology and a non-sequitur. Congratulations.

    Plainly it's alive, so that is yes. So if it is human with all the information needed to become fully developed and the complete capacity to do so, and if it is alive, it must be a human life.
    Faulty reasoning. The zygote contains POTENTIAL human life. POTENTIAL is not the same as ACTUAL.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,270, Reputation: 154
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    #107

    Oct 17, 2019, 03:00 PM
    It's NOT your human and since you had nothing to do with the creation, you have nothing to do with the outcome.
    If that is true, then why are you so concerned with the children at the southern border? After all, they are NOT your human since you had nothing to do with their creation, and therefore have nothing to do with the outcome. Is that your approach? I'm just amazed that you would suggest that we should only care for the humans that are OUR children, but have no concern for others. I don't believe you have thought this through adequately.

    Aren't you the one who is so quick to point out the insults others make? And yet, you are the biggest offender here.
    That is a valid point. I stepped over the line. My apologies. Of course when you refer to my supposed lack of logic below, then aren't you doing what you are criticizing me for doing?

    Logic is not your strong point. A zygote, you say, has to be human. Why? Because a zygote is human, what else could it be? Amazingly, you have managed to give us three logical fallacies in one example - circular reasoning, tautology and a non-sequitur. Congratulations.
    But aren't you doing the same thing when you refer to it as as containing "potential human life"? My point, which is valid, is that if you don't want to refer to it as human, then what would you call it? If not human, then what? As to it being merely "potential" life, then when does it actually become human life? Perhaps you could tell us what standard you use to determine that point?

    BTW, a tautology is not a logical fallacy. It is a logical assertion, but not a fallacy. They are generally considered to be undesirable rather than fallacious. My statement is also not circular reasoning. My statement would be equivalent to saying, "Out of a range of four possible answers (a,b,c,or d) if the answer is not a,b, or c, then it must be d. It is only a non-sequitar if my conclusion does not logically follow from my previous statement. I think it does.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 46, Reputation: 2
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    #108

    Oct 17, 2019, 05:56 PM
    Athos: The reconciliation of the argument is very simple: Babies are innocent as they are ever going to be from that point forward......Those who are subject to Capital Punishment are truly fetid, festering pieces of sh&$ that need to be flushed with lightening speed. I have this same argument with my wife who thinks its not for us to take those decisions belonging to God, that we aren't in a position to make that decision about who lives or dies.....and I always pose the question that if Hitler was standing before her and she had a gun, would she not end his life? The answer is obvious: Sometimes logic drives the answer.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 46, Reputation: 2
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    #109

    Oct 17, 2019, 06:02 PM
    Athos: The reconciliation of the argument is very simple: Babies are innocent as they are ever going to be from that point forward......Those who are subject to Capital Punishment are truly fetid, festering pieces of sh&$ that need to be flushed with lightening speed. I have this same argument with my wife who thinks its not for us to take those decisions belonging to God, that we aren't in a position to make that decision about who lives or dies.....and I always pose the question that if Hitler was standing before her and she had a gun, would she not end his life? The answer is obvious: Sometimes logic drives the answer.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,851, Reputation: 5428
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    #110

    Oct 17, 2019, 06:20 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    I always pose the question that if Hitler was standing before her and she had a gun, would she not end his life? The answer is obvious: Sometimes logic drives the answer.
    So you advocate killing mentally ill people? Hitler most likely suffered from borderline personality disorder.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,107, Reputation: 10852
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    #111

    Oct 18, 2019, 01:16 AM
    It's NOT your human and since you had nothing to do with the creation, you have nothing to do with the outcome./T


    If that is true, then why are you so concerned with the children at the southern border? After all, they are NOT your human since you had nothing to do with their creation, and therefore have nothing to do with the outcome. Is that your approach? I'm just amazed that you would suggest that we should only care for the humans that are OUR children, but have no concern for others. I don't believe you have thought this through adequately. /JL
    I may not have anything to do with the outcome of their creation, but after birth all humans are equal and should be treated as such, especially the least of us. If you cannot see the nuance of that perception, then you are missing something pretty basic, and maybe give it some thought. For sure guy, your positions are not mine, and while I understand your intensity, I do not accept or understand your premise, that you can control the choices others make. Maybe I cannot control what others do, but I can control what I do. I suspect you are also bound by that same limitation, though I doubt it stops you from trying and that's okay with me. The good news though is states can make laws and policies that comport with the laws and policies of the country and simple fact is the majority rules that determination.

    I have no doubt you will just keep trying to change the law that limits what you can do. Or change it back to what you have done before. Stop abortions. Seems to work in your state and a few others but in some, they just feel different about it.
    Vacuum7's Avatar
    Vacuum7 Posts: 46, Reputation: 2
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    #112

    Oct 18, 2019, 03:59 AM
    W.G.: No, I do not advocate killing mentally ill people.....I do not advocate euthanasia, either. However, Hitler was the embodiment of EVIL, way beyond mentally ill.....I mean, if Hitler was mentally ill, was not Stalin, was not Mao, was not the Khans, or all of the other murdering "leaders" of all time. I do think Hitler was a mad, rabid dog...and the only medicine that can cure rabies is a bullet.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,270, Reputation: 154
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    #113

    Oct 18, 2019, 04:18 AM
    but after birth all humans are equal and should be treated as such, especially the least of us. If you cannot see the nuance of that perception, then you are missing something pretty basic, and maybe give it some thought.
    I think you take that position, not because it makes any real sense, but simply because it makes your support of abortion seem reasonable. But by that thinking, we can have an unborn baby, perhaps a day or two from delivery and well into the ninth month. That baby can be killed in the womb and then the corpse removed and disposed of. You have no problem with that. Well, I can't change your mind for you, but I can at least make clear what are the ramifications of what you profess to believe. Trying to hide behind "the nuance of that perception" might make you feel a little better, but it's such a hideous idea that I can't imagine how you can be comfortable with it. It is well known that most babies in the third trimester are able to survive and grow normally outside the womb, but in your zeal to support the liberal democrat party candidates, it seems you have to grasp at straws to abide with their whole-hearted endorsement of abortion. Taking the purely arbitrary position that birth somehow changes a person's status has no support in science or even in common sense. Dear God what a horrible position that is. I'm glad it's not mine.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 505, Reputation: 54
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    #114

    Oct 18, 2019, 05:34 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    That is a valid point. I stepped over the line. My apologies. Of course when you refer to my supposed lack of logic below, then aren't you doing what you are criticizing me for doing?
    Apology accepted. Yes, I'm doing what I crticized you for. The difference is, you are the one whining about insults. I am only reacting to you.

    But aren't you doing the same thing when you refer to it as as containing "potential human life"? My point, which is valid, is that if you don't want to refer to it as human, then what would you call it?
    I would call it what it is - a zygote. Your "point" is just a word game.

    being merely "potential" life, then when does it actually become human life?
    I don't know. Viability has been suggested. That seems reasonable to me.

    Perhaps you could tell us what standard you use to determine that point?
    Viability? Aristotle, two thousand years of Catholic Church teaching, many various modern voices - all denying abortion is murder. The RC reversed its position around 1900. But their motives are complex - too much so to get into here.

    BTW, a tautology is not a logical fallacy. It is a logical assertion, but not a fallacy.
    Wrong. See below.

    My statement is also not circular reasoning.
    Wrong. See below.

    It is only a non-sequitar if my conclusion does not logically follow from my previous statement.
    It doesn't. See below.

    Tautology and circular reasoning are so similar that only a teacher of philosophy would differentiate. So I will give you a technical correct. A non-sequitur, however, is arguably a part of every logical fallacy - the conclusion not being supported by the premises.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,851, Reputation: 5428
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    #115

    Oct 18, 2019, 06:19 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Vacuum7 View Post
    W.G.: No, I do not advocate killing mentally ill people.....I do not advocate euthanasia, either. However, Hitler was the embodiment of EVIL, way beyond mentally ill.....I mean, if Hitler was mentally ill, was not Stalin, was not Mao, was not the Khans, or all of the other murdering "leaders" of all time. I do think Hitler was a mad, rabid dog...and the only medicine that can cure rabies is a bullet.
    So let's kill him/them.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,270, Reputation: 154
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    #116

    Oct 18, 2019, 06:29 AM
    Tautology and circular reasoning are so similar that only a teacher of philosophy would differentiate. So I will give you a technical correct. A non-sequitur, however, is arguably a part of every logical fallacy - the conclusion not being supported by the premises.
    I didn't disagree with you referring to a non-sequitur being a logical fallacy. I said I was not guilty of it. As to tautologies and circular reasoning, the first is simply a logical assertion. Tautologies, by definition, are always true. They are frequently rather simplistic, obvious statements that, while being true, add very little meaning. They can be viewed as the opposite of a contradiction. Circular reasoning, however, is a wide spread logical fallacy. I think that much of advertising is based on circular reasoning. You see it all the time.


    being merely "potential" life, then when does it actually become human life?
    I don't know. Viability has been suggested. That seems reasonable to me.
    If you don't know, then how would you know that a zygote is not an actual human life? In other words, it is quite possible that you could be wrong since, after all, you don't know.

    As to viability, if medicine is some day able to take a zygote and have it develop to maturity outside the womb, then would that make the zygote a human life since it would then meet the definition of viability? That's a legitimate question since medical science is continually pushing the age of viability further and further back. It seems strange to me to attach the value of human life to the abilities of medical science. You will always have a moving target.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 3,270, Reputation: 154
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    #117

    Oct 18, 2019, 06:43 AM
    So let's kill him/them.
    Why would we not believe that your assessment of Hitler's mental illness is pure speculation?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 37,851, Reputation: 5428
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    #118

    Oct 18, 2019, 06:49 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    If you don't know, then how would you know that a zygote is not an actual human life? In other words, it is quite possible that you could be wrong since, after all, you don't know.
    Here ya go, Biology 101:
    https://www.scienceabc.com/pure-scie...vs-emrbyo.html

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Why would we not believe that your assessment of Hitler's mental illness is pure speculation?
    It isn't. Google that. As a well-trained and experienced psychotherapist, I agree with that diagnosis.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 3,270, Reputation: 154
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    #119

    Oct 18, 2019, 07:02 AM
    You do realize that your link added nothing to our conversation about what constitutes human life? It was simply a basic discussion of the development of the zygote, none of which was in debate here, and it added nothing to the statement of Athos that he did not know when human life began, so I'm not sure of what your purpose was.

    As to Hitler's supposed mental illness, I long for the day on this site when people will learn to defend their assertions with something other than the ubiquitous (on this site) plea to "google it". If you have some information, then present it. Otherwise, I still see your diagnosis as pure speculation.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,107, Reputation: 10852
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    #120

    Oct 18, 2019, 07:09 AM
    Speculation? Or is this lying?

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I think you take that position, not because it makes any real sense, but simply because it makes your support of abortion seem reasonable. But by that thinking, we can have an unborn baby, perhaps a day or two from delivery and well into the ninth month. That baby can be killed in the womb and then the corpse removed and disposed of. You have no problem with that. Well, I can't change your mind for you, but I can at least make clear what are the ramifications of what you profess to believe. Trying to hide behind "the nuance of that perception" might make you feel a little better, but it's such a hideous idea that I can't imagine how you can be comfortable with it. It is well known that most babies in the third trimester are able to survive and grow normally outside the womb, but in your zeal to support the liberal democrat party candidates, it seems you have to grasp at straws to abide with their whole-hearted endorsement of abortion. Taking the purely arbitrary position that birth somehow changes a person's status has no support in science or even in common sense. Dear God what a horrible position that is. I'm glad it's not mine.
    Actually this is what I wrote about my position.

    'Maybe that's the difference in us, as some see in absolutes, and some see in the full range where there is a middle ground. We have debated when life begins, and some say when the egg is fertilized, some say when it leaves the womb.

    I will be honest and abortions after 6 to 8 weeks just creep me out. Cleaning out a zygote not so much. Life can be precious, to some all life is, but of the more than a hundred and 50 million women and a falling KNOWN abortion rate of less than a million a year, that's not a wholesale stampede to kill babies, just the opposite. Instead of perfect behavior, I can take just moving in a good direction and working to improve on the very human flaws we all have.

    I don't think we will be perfect in my lifetime, but plenty of room to get better. That's why when I say I prefer the educational approach to this issue it's more than where babies come from and how, but an awareness of HOW to understand and listen to your own female body and know what to do when you have sex, and think you could be pregnant, and as I have said on this site many times, and will say many more ABSTINENCE is the only 100% effective birth control method.

    I much prefer the truth of facts while recognizing the intense feelings on this subject by flawed humans. Maybe it seems more people are doing the abortion thing, but I bet it's always been a wider spread practice than has been perceived before, but more is know now, since more has been revealed over time, and more people are expressing their own views on the subject.

    The secret is out in the open and I think that's a good thing.'

    I'll be nice for now and just put your posting down as the rantings of a flawed human with reading and perception problems. Hope you get better soon.

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