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    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #41

    Jan 11, 2021, 03:25 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    You really don't think that "a woman and her doctor" will always decide to preserve the unborn child's life, do you?
    And when that severely disabled baby is born? Then what? Or the mother, who has been told her life is at risk, dies during delivery? Then what?
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #42

    Jan 11, 2021, 04:28 PM
    Well, what happens when any severely disabled baby is born? Do you kill it, or do you raise that child in the same loving way you do any child? Good grief. What on earth are you suggesting? Should we have a gun in the delivery room now? "Sorry kid, but you're a little too imperfect. See ya later!"
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    #43

    Jan 11, 2021, 04:47 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Well, what happens when any severely disabled baby is born?
    We're talking about during pregnancy, not after birth. OBs do have tests to determine the health of the fetus and how the pregnant woman is faring.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #44

    Jan 11, 2021, 04:58 PM
    First of all, that is NOT what you said. "And when that severely disabled baby is born? " That was your question. Now, as is your habit, you want to back out of your corner and reverse course.

    But at any rate, how convenient. We can just kill the little beggar during pregnancy so it's nice, quiet, and hidden from view. What does that kind of thinking remind you of?
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #45

    Jan 11, 2021, 05:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I see. How convenient. We can just kill the little beggar during pregnancy so it's nice, quiet, and hidden from view. What does that kind of thinking remind you of?
    Why you so obsessed with killing???
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #46

    Jan 11, 2021, 05:08 PM
    I'm talking with a liberal dem who loves abortion and asked the absolutely disgusting and sickening question of what to do when a severely disabled baby is born, and then wanted to lie and suggest she did not say that. Is that plain enough for you?

    And when that severely disabled baby is born?

    We're talking about during pregnancy, not after birth.
    And this is the same person who either lives on a moderate income or is a monied republican, depending on what political point she is trying to make.

    Talk to someone else. I dislike your dishonesty.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #47

    Jan 11, 2021, 05:10 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I'm talking with a liberal dem who loves abortion and asked the absolutely disgusting and sickening question of what to do when a severely disabled baby is born, and then wanted to lie and suggest she did not say that. Is that plain enough for you?
    Nope, you totally misunderstood my question. Please quote me correctly.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #48

    Jan 11, 2021, 05:25 PM
    Passing by to read WG's posts, the abortion discussion continues. I probably shouldn't jump in, but in for a penny in for a pound.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Do you kill it, or do you raise that child in the same loving way you do any child? Should we have a gun in the delivery room now? "Sorry kid, but you're a little too imperfect. See ya later!"
    Any child? Let's see what God says about that. And, "Sorry kid, but you're a little too imperfect. See ya later". God seems to have a mixed message regarding the sanctity of life. Surely, born life is at least as important as unborn life! Here's a smattering of Old Testament Bible references on the subject.

    “Thou shalt not kill” (or, as reflected in the original Hebrew text, “Thou shalt not murder,” which refers to unlawful killings), but how can you get from that to some sort of universal declaration regarding the sanctity of life ?

    Life is sacred, unless somebody is a homosexual, in which case you are commanded (not just permitted) to stone them to death.

    Or, unless that life belongs to a disobedient child, in which case, once again, you are commanded to kill him or her. And don’t forget the time a bunch of children mocked a prophet by calling him “Baldy” and God sent a couple of bears to eat them.

    Does somebody claim to be a witch? Her life is forfeit.

    What about all the times in the Bible where God commanded his chosen people to commit outright genocide by slaughtering all the men, women, children and, yes, even little infants of various competing nations? Who can forget that wonderful time when God had Moses tell all the Levites to go out and kill their brothers, their companion, and even their neighbors, just to show how devoted they were?

    After all, nothing shows “sanctity of life” like being told to kill random people just to show how much you love God.

    The Bible even includes instructions on how to induce a miscarriage of a woman if she is suspected of having cheated on her husband? How is that any different from abortion?

    Life is so important to God that He just can’t help commanding his people to slaughter others at the drop of a hat. And you think He would actually care if a woman wanted to have an abortion? Maybe some other deity, but not the God of the Bible.

    Speaking of the sanctity of life, there’s also that bit about wiping out ALL LIFE ON EARTH in a flood, except for a tiny group that could fit on a wooden boat.

    Pro-life is misnamed - it should be pro-SOME life.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #49

    Jan 11, 2021, 06:06 PM
    So you don't like God. What else do you have to offer?
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    #50

    Jan 11, 2021, 06:15 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    So you don't like God. What else do you have to offer?
    Why is the OT God so different from the NT Jesus?
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #51

    Jan 11, 2021, 08:04 PM
    Nope, you totally misunderstood my question. Please quote me correctly.
    First you said, "And when that severely disabled baby is born?" Then you said, "We're talking about during pregnancy, not after birth." Then you tell me to quote you correctly?

    Honestly, I don't know if you are intentionally lying, if this is a big joke to you, or if you just can't remember what you typed thirty minutes ago. One way or the other, I know our exchanges always go like this.

    WG. "I think it's A."
    JL. "Why do you think it's A?"
    WG. "I didn't say it was A! I said it was B!"
    JL. "OK. Why do you think it is B?"
    WG. "Have you considered option D? And why are you obsessed with killing?"

    And on and on it goes. I'm worn out with it. Done.
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #52

    Jan 12, 2021, 09:57 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    First you said, "And when that severely disabled baby is born?"
    You're repeating only MY questions (and only partially, at that), which are responses to your comments as I tried to clarify your thinking. My initial questions that apparently threw you off the rails were:
    1. "And when that severely disabled baby is born? Then what?"
    JL, your focus was on my supposedly killing that baby. No! What happens when the baby survives the birth and yet has virtually no chance of any kind of decent life (e.g., thalidomide baby or DES baby)? What about the parents? siblings? expenses ahead? Will charities or the government help?
    2. "Or the mother, who has been told her life is at risk, dies during delivery? Then what?"
    Should the mother, who could survive if the baby is aborted, be allowed to die and leave her frantic husband without a wife and her children, including the new baby, without a mother?

    I don't expect you to respond any further, but do hope you read my responses, questions that will face the mother -- and father.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #53

    Jan 12, 2021, 10:41 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
    Why is the OT God so different from the NT Jesus?
    After he reads your responses re the mother and father, I hope he answers this one.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #54

    Jan 12, 2021, 12:00 PM
    I hope he answers this one.
    Read Matthew 25:31-46. Perhaps the problem is an incorrect perception of Christ of the part of the 2 of you.

    You're repeating only MY questions (and only partially, at that), which are responses to your comments as I tried to clarify your thinking. My initial questions that apparently threw you off the rails were:
    Hogwash.
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    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #55

    Jan 12, 2021, 12:33 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    Read Matthew 25:31-46. Perhaps the problem is an incorrect perception of Christ of the part of the 2 of you.
    So according to your perception of Matthew, Jesus commands us to;

    Kill homosexuals?
    Kill disobedient children?
    Kill children who mock prophets? A particularly gruesome one - children eaten by bears.
    Kill witches?
    Kill entire groups of people, aka genocide. Including adults, children and infants? INFANTS?
    Kill unborn children? Jesus approves of abortion just like in the OT?

    Jesus commands all these killings so that you can show your love for him? How do you love your enemy and kill him at the same time? Please provide the Bible verse for that. I'm sure you have one.

    Just in case you missed it, Jesus also, and finally, approved of wiping out the entire human race in a flood? According to you.

    Still think our reading of Matthew is an incorrect perception?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #56

    Jan 12, 2021, 12:51 PM
    So according to your perception of Matthew
    I don't have a perception of Matthew. I have an acceptance of Matthew.

    Jesus commands us to;

    Kill homosexuals? No
    Kill disobedient children? No
    Kill children who mock prophets? A particularly gruesome one - children eaten by bears. No.
    Kill witches? No.
    Kill entire groups of people, aka genocide. Including adults, children and infants? No.
    INFANTS?
    Kill unborn children? Jesus approves of abortion just like in the OT? No, though I might add that it seems strange that you and WG would be critical of that one since you both vote your approval of abortion now. Strange indeed.

    Jesus commands all these killings so that you can show your love for him? How do you love your enemy and kill him at the same time? Please provide the Bible verse for that. I'm sure you have one.
    Your idea, not mine.

    Just in case you missed it, Jesus also, and finally, approved of wiping out the entire human race in a flood? According to you.
    No, according to the Bible, that is what the God you don't like did.

    Still think our reading of Matthew is an incorrect perception?
    The text is clear and plain.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #57

    Jan 12, 2021, 01:37 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I might add that it seems strange that you and WG would be critical of that one since you both vote your approval of abortion now. Strange indeed.
    When and where have I (and Athos) approved of abortion? If there has to be an abortion, there had better be a darn good reason, as per my previous examples!

    Thus, JL's conclusion is that the NT Jesus is as murderous as is the OT God?
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #58

    Jan 12, 2021, 01:42 PM
    When you vote for Biden, you are in favor of abortion.

    First you said, "All I have said is that a woman and her doctor should make that decision together." Now you say, " If there has to be an abortion, there had better be a darn good reason." So we are back to saying A, and then saying B.

    If there is not a "darn good reason", then what happens next?
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #59

    Jan 12, 2021, 01:59 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    When you vote for Biden, you are in favor of abortion.
    I know Trump believes in it and has made sure some of his offspring have been aborted.
    First you said, "All I have said is that a woman and her doctor should make that decision together." Now you say, " If there has to be an abortion, there had better be a darn good reason." So we are back to saying A, and then saying B.
    Yep! A woman and her doctor should make that decision together. If there has to be an abortion, there had better be a darn good reason.
    If there is not a "darn good reason", then what happens next?
    No abortion.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,327, Reputation: 10855
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    #60

    Jan 12, 2021, 02:01 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    When you vote for Biden, you are in favor of abortion.
    Only if you're a one issue voter. Would you side with the devil if he were against abortions? Or said he was as I suspect the dufus does. Frankly I doubt he cares one way or another unless it's his.

    You're assumption has flaws.

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