[Wondergirl]

The OT God who kills at random and wipes out the entire human race is a creation myth. Every primitive group, such as a wandering nomadic tribe in the ancient Middle East, has these stories. They are established over time to cohere the people until they are told around the campfires at night by the elders.

Centuries pass, and the priests and leaders write the stories down where they become the creation myths and sacred scripture of the tribe. They are powerful stories that keep the people focused as a unity. Nobody really believes anymore that a God literally drowned the entire human race except for Noah. Well, some do, but they are usually children - and adults on the far margins of the religion.

As you said, Athos, many cultures had creation myths and flood myths. In college, we read and took apart The Epic of Gilgamesh, and compared it with other flood stories. JL, have you ever read The Epic of Gilgamesh?

Here's a link to a listing and brief summaries of many flood stories (note the similarities):

https://www.mythoreligio.com/15-floo...ory-of-noah-2/

* * * * *
JL: That's not what I said -- that Jesus is worse than killing!

FROM JL - I have said, and in fact Jesus has said, that He will visit terrible judgment in the future which will be worse even than killing.

[jlisenbe]

You suppose it's possible that there are many flood accounts because...there was a flood?

If God decides to end a person's life, does He not have the authority to do so, even if you find it to be offensive? Why would He need our permission or approval?

[Athos]

I hope you realize your shouting (bold text) demonstrates nothing.

I know your reading comprehension and your memory are bad, so I wasn't sure about your hearing. So I shouted.

Like I said, you don't accept the Bible.

Like I said umpteen times now, I accept the Bible but not like a mindless idiot. Not meaning present company, of course.

Don't be intentionally stupid.

Hmm, I may have to take back that mindless idiot quote now.

That's not what I said. Go back and look again.

Here's your actual quote - are you being intentionally stupid? I'll shout it for you. I have said, and in fact Jesus has said, that He will visit terrible judgment in the future which will be worse even than killing.

Here's what I said - Whew! Jesus is WORSE than killing! Wow!

Well, you have now in your reply above, which basically tries to solve the problem by simply doing away with most of the OT.

There you go again - making untruthful statements. I clearly did NOT "do away" with "most of the OT". I interpreted a tiny section of the OT (Genesis) as most major denominations do. Lie much?

And that still doesn't explain how Jesus can plan on bringing such terrible judgment on the earth and still be ONLY a God of love.

Simple. You have misinterpreted the Gospel as you did with Genesis. The answer for you is to read your Bible - especially the Gospels - and ask for guidance to understand. There is nothing more I can do for you since you are so stiff-necked.

Now you are free to believe as you will, and I will never contest that, but you are not free to compel anyone to accept your views simply because they are your views.

You have that backwards. I NEVER threaten (or warn) and I NEVER compel. People are free to believe what they want - an idea you should ponder.

I'd still love to know what you think Jesus meant when He said, "Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Are you sure he said that? Read that yourself in context and think about it.

[Wondergirl]

You suppose it's possible that there are many flood accounts because...there was a flood?

Please reread what I posted. (P.S. There were MANY floods and very similar flood stories.)

If God decides to end a person's life, does He not have the authority to do so, even if you find it to be offensive? Why would He need our permission or approval?

God kills us?

[Athos]

You suppose it's possible that there are many flood accounts because...there was a flood?

There was no flood that wiped out the entire human race. Get real.

As WG said, read The Epic of Gilgamesh - it's practically plagiarized by the the writers of Genesis, it's so close.

[jlisenbe]

Here's your actual quote - are you being intentionally stupid? I'll shout it for you. I have said, and in fact Jesus has said, that He will visit terrible judgment in the future which will be worse even than killing.

Here's what I said - Whew! Jesus is WORSE than killing! Wow!

Hmmm. His judgment will be worse even than killing. To you, that means Jesus is worse than killing. Hard to know what to say about that. Intentionally stupid seems still to be appropriate.

There you go again - making untruthful statements. I clearly did NOT "do away" with "most of the OT". I interpreted a tiny section of the OT (Genesis) as most major denominations do. Lie much?

OK. So you're OK with the destruction of the Canaanites? Just checking.

And that still doesn't explain how Jesus can plan on bringing such terrible judgment on the earth and still be ONLY a God of love.


Simple. You have misinterpreted the Gospel as you did with Genesis. The answer for you is to read your Bible - especially the Gospels - and ask for guidance to understand. There is nothing more I can do for you since you are so stiff-necked.

Thank you for that non-answer. As to the Gospels, I read through the NT four times a year and have been doing so for a number of years.

I'd still love to know what you think Jesus meant when He said, "Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."


Are you sure he said that? Read that yourself in context and think about it.

And yet another non-answer. If you don't know, then why not just admit that you don't know instead of this phony intellectual professor garbage?

[Athos]

As to the Gospels, I read through the NT four times a year and have been doing so for a number of years.

Try less reading and more thinking.

[jlisenbe]

There was no flood that wiped out the entire human race. Get real.

Jesus considered the story to be true, so I'll just side with Him.

As WG said, read The Epic of Gilgamesh - it's practically plagiarized by the the writers of Genesis, it's so close.

The two stories differ in significant ways. But even at that, they could both very well be describing the same incident.

Try less reading and more thinking.

Vague platitudes will accomplish nothing for you other than being obvious attempts to side step a question which you prefer not to answer.

[jlisenbe]

Let's see. Just to sum up, you have not answered the question about the application of your view of aionios to both hell and heaven, and you have not given your view of the words of Christ in John 8:24. See why I say you don't like to answer questions???

[Wondergirl]

The two stories differ in significant ways. But even at that, they could both very well be describing the same incident.

But only eight humans survived the Genesis flood. Utnapishtim was Noah?

[jlisenbe]

But only eight humans survived the Genesis flood. Utnapishtim was Noah?

I wouldn't go that far, but as you said above, there are many ancient accounts of a great flood. These come from virtually all over the world. "Of the flood traditions which have survived to the present time, about 95% describe a global cataclysmic deluge, 88% tell of a favored family of humans saved from drowning to reestablish the human race after the deluge, 66% say the family was forewarned of the coming cataclysm, 66% blame the wickedness of man for the deluge, and 70% record a boat as being the means by which the chosen family (and animals) survived the flood."

Coincidence?

[Wondergirl]

If everyone drowned except Noah and his family, who wrote all these other stories? (P.S. This can be researched.)

[jlisenbe]

The story was passed down by descendants of survivors. You do realize that the flood predated the writing of the Book of Genesis? (P.S. That can also be researched.)

who wrote all these other stories?

You do realize that it is virtually impossible to identify WHO wrote those ancient accounts? There is no certainty for the Pentateuch, for that matter.

[Wondergirl]

The story was passed down by descendants of survivors. You do realize that the flood predated the writing of the Book of Genesis? (P.S. That can also be researched.)

You do realize that it is virtually impossible to identify WHO wrote those ancient accounts? There is no certainty for the Pentateuch, for that matter.

Yeah, those Aztec and Nigerian descendants....

[jlisenbe]

And one more I'm waiting for Athos to answer concerning the destruction of the Canaanites which is not in that small section of Genesis he discounts. That would make three unanswered questions.

[Athos]

See why I say you don't like to answer questions???

Your untrustworthy-ness is why your attempt to exchange questions is not done. You should know that by now since you have been told so many times. As I already related to you here, when I did trust you and went ahead, you never held up your part of the bargain.

I'm sure you will continue to claim the opposite, but we both know the truth.

You can't silence your conscience.

[jlisenbe]

Your untrustworthy-ness is why your attempt to exchange questions is not done. You should know that by now since you have been told so many times. As I already related to you here, when I did trust you and went ahead, you never held up your part of the bargain.

I'm sure you will continue to claim the opposite, but we both know the truth.

You can't silence your conscience.

Oh well. More non-answers and platitudes. I have just identified three questions you have not answered with no luck. I've never met anyone more reluctant to tackle the difficult issues, and you cannot identify a single question you have ever asked me that went unanswered. But as you said, go in peace.

I am grateful that at least you have stopped your internet shouting.

[Athos]

I've never met anyone more reluctant to tackle the difficult issues,

In that case, you will find one by looking in a mirror.

and you cannot identify a single question you have ever asked me that went unanswered.

You know it and I know it. That's enough.

I am grateful that at least you have stopped your internet shouting.

No need to since you got yourself a hearing aid.

[jlisenbe]

You know it and I know it. That's enough.

Well...you imagine it. The fact that you cannot identify it speaks volumes.

I can, however, identify the three you have not answered.

1. Since you say you accept the Bible past Genesis 10 or so, how do you explain God's order to destroy the Canaanites when you claim it is a contradiction of the teachings of Christ?
2. What is your view of the words of Christ? "Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." A reply more substantial than, "Are you sure he said that? Read that yourself in context and think about it," would be nice.
3. I asked why, if aionios in reference to hell means temporary, then why doesn't it mean temporary for heaven. And in reference to your views on aionios, I will say again, as I have before, that virtually no one, outside of Robert Young, agrees with your view. EVERY other major translation renders it as "eternal".

[Athos]

I can, however, identify the three you have not answered.

I have answered 2 of the 3. You just don't like the answers - "not liking" is not the same as "not answering".

1. Since you say you accept the Bible past Genesis 10 or so,

I NEVER said that about the Bible. You really have a problem with things I did say or did not say. It's either your lack of reading comprehension or you're lying.

I accept the entire Bible but not the way you do. I acknowledge the literal, the historical, the moral and the allegorical sense of the Bible. You are stuck on the literal which deprives you from any deeper understanding of the Good Book.

how do you explain God's order to destroy the Canaanites when you claim it is a contradiction of the teachings of Christ?

It's so strikingly a contradiction of the message of the Bible that I'm surprised you even ask it after the discussion we've been having.

First, do you seriously believe that God ordered the genocide of an entire people? Don't you think it highly more likely to see this story of Israel's entrance into the "Promised Land" as a tribute to their tribal God? A God that they praise for their victory. The true God does not slaughter his own creation.

Second, the Canaanites weren't actually wiped out as the story would have it - further proof of the story being an allegory. DNA extraction indicates that the Israelites were themselves Canaanites, and retain such DNA to the present day.

2. What is your view of the words of Christ? "Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." A reply more substantial than, "Are you sure he said that? Read that yourself in context and think about it," would be nice.

My reply was the best one for you. Apparently, you didn't follow my advice. If you had, you would have discovered that nowhere in that passage does Jesus refer to his killing anyone or anything.

3. I asked why, if aionios in reference to hell means temporary, then why doesn't it mean temporary for heaven.

I have answered this at length, as you are well aware. I do not intend to go through it again. You can easily find it yourself.

EVERY other major translation renders it as "eternal".

That is because "every other translation" follows Jerome's Vulgate.

The early Greek speakers never felt the need to explain Greek words such as "aion" and "aionion." In Greek, an aion (in English, usually spelled "eon") is an indefinite period of time, usually of long duration. When it was translated into the Latin Vulgate, "aion" became "aeternam" which means "eternal." These translation errors were the basis for much of what was written about Eternal Hell.

I sincerely hope you don't go around telling people about the killing monster you claim Jesus to be. It begs the question why you find it so necessary to see Jesus in that murderous light.