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    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #121

    Jan 18, 2021, 01:29 PM

    1. Since you say you accept the Bible past Genesis 10 or so,


    I NEVER said that about the Bible
    This was your statement. "I clearly did NOT "do away" with "most of the OT". I interpreted a tiny section of the OT (Genesis) as most major denominations do." I took that to mean you accept the Bible outside of the beginning of Genesis, but you want to throw out all of Genesis so that's fine, The destruction of the Canaanites is till outside of Genesis. Do you accept that?

    I have answered 2 of the 3.
    Fraid not.

    It's so strikingly a contradiction of the message of the Bible that I'm surprised you even ask it after the discussion we've been having.

    First, do you seriously believe that God ordered the genocide of an entire people? Don't you think it highly more likely to see this story of Israel's entrance into the "Promised Land" as a tribute to their tribal God? A God that they praise for their victory. The true God does not slaughter his own creation.

    Second, the Canaanites weren't actually wiped out as the story would have it - further proof of the story being an allegory. DNA extraction indicates that the Israelites were themselves Canaanites, and retain such DNA to the present day.
    Long story made short, the Bible account, for you, is not accurate. So another aspect of the OT that you don't accept.

    My reply was the best one for you. Apparently, you didn't follow my advice. If you had, you would have discovered that nowhere in that passage does Jesus refer to his killing anyone or anything.
    Another non-answer. I never suggested Jesus said He would kill someone in that passage. He said they would die in their sins. I asked you what you thought of that. As usual, you do not answer.

    I have answered this at length, as you are well aware. I do not intend to go through it again. You can easily find it yourself.
    Another non-answer. You have never answered that.

    That is because "every other translation" follows Jerome's Vulgate.

    The early Greek speakers never felt the need to explain Greek words such as "aion" and "aionion." In Greek, an aion (in English, usually spelled "eon") is an indefinite period of time, usually of long duration. When it was translated into the Latin Vulgate, "aion" became "aeternam" which means "eternal." These translation errors were the basis for much of what was written about Eternal Hell.

    I sincerely hope you don't go around telling people about the killing monster you claim Jesus to be. It begs the question why you find it so necessary to see Jesus in that murderous light.
    Your final paragraph is a flat out lie. I have never said that. If I had, you would have thrown up the quote.

    As to the rest, it's a nice theory. But even if I accepted that, you would still render heaven temporary. It's unavoidable. At any rate, perhaps the thousands of highly educated individuals who translated the several dozen translations that disagree with your idea would love to hear from you about that.

    This is pointless. It's like nearly every other discussion on this site. No one ever persuades anyone else to change his/her mind. I have asked you three questions and you have declined to answer them. You claim I have avoided answering some mystery question evidently unknown to either one of us. You don't like the God of the OT. I don't think He cares if you approve or not. So that's, it seems to me, where it stands.
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    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #122

    Jan 18, 2021, 01:43 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    As to the rest, it's a nice theory. But even if I accepted that, you would still render heaven temporary. It's unavoidable. At any rate, perhaps the thousands of highly educated individuals who translated the several dozen translations that disagree with your idea would love to hear from you about that.
    Here's something to ponder:

    I Can’t Wait to Get out of Heaven

    When talking about God’s ultimate destination for us, we’ve grown sloppy in our language, nearsighted in our gaze, and un-Easter in our hope. We act and speak as if dying and going to heaven is what the faith is all about. It is most emphatically not.

    Sit through many Christian funerals, and you’ll hear the word “heaven” bouncing around from pulpit to pew to piano. Uncle Gary is now “in heaven,” the preacher will proclaim. “Grandma Jones is in her heavenly resting place,” a family member will say. When the music starts, the choir will sing that we are but strangers here; heaven is our home. Heaven, heaven, and more heaven.
    * * * * *
    From the beginning, God made earth as humanity’s home. Evil has corrupted it, to be sure, so that “the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth” while it awaits the return of Christ, when it will be “set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God” (Rom. 8:21-22). The whole creation is waiting, not for the children of God to go to heaven, but for Christ to return and make creation free of corruption. Then it will be, once more, the dwelling place of God’s sons and daughters.

    If the renewed earth is where our Father wants us to be, who does he want us to be? He certainly doesn’t want us to be angels or spirits or disembodied ghosts. He wants us to bear the bodily image of his Son, the resurrected Messiah. But we can’t really do that if we are still in paradise, with Christ, in heaven, while our bodies are decomposing in the grave. So, when Jesus returns, he will raise and glorify our bodies. No matter what’s happened to them—buried, burned, cast into the sea, dismembered, it matters not—he who spoke all creation into being with his word, will speak our bodies back into being by that same word.

    Then, the where will match the who: we will be embodied, perfected, glorified people standing on a renewed, perfected, holy earth. There we will go about the task of being fully human, as God intended. The Lord’s story will have come full circle, from creation to recreation: from Genesis, where one man and one woman were living and working and worshiping in Eden, to Revelation, where a resurrected humanity is living and working and worshiping all over God’s green and glorified earth.

    from this essay --
    https://www.1517.org/articles/i-cant...-out-of-heaven
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #123

    Jan 18, 2021, 02:47 PM
    An interesting post, WG. And you (or the author, at least) used a proof text, which is commendable. But I do believe you left out the most important element, which is the corruption, not just of creation, but of man. Jesus did not die in order to redeem creation. Jesus died to purchase redemption for sinners. Lk. 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” John 3:36. "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    The author of the piece understood that. "What happens when believers in Christ die? They go to a place called Paradise (Luke 23:43). They are with Christ (Phil. 1:23). Or, if you prefer, they go to heaven."
    Wondergirl's Avatar
    Wondergirl Posts: 39,354, Reputation: 5431
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    #124

    Jan 18, 2021, 03:04 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    An interesting post, WG. And you (or the author, at least) used a proof text, which is commendable. But I do believe you left out the most important element, which is the corruption, not just of creation, but of man.
    That's why I posted the link, so that you could read the entire blog article and see that Chad did include that. I posted as much as I could to hopefully whet your interest but not hog AMHD space.

    And Chad doesn't believe heaven is the final stop. That final stop will be on earth, our paradise with Christ.

    "Heaven is great, don’t get me wrong. But the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting, living in the new earth as fully bodied humans, reflecting the glory of the fully bodied Messiah—that’s the goal. That’s the destination. That is our final home.

    Home, for the Christian, is not the hotel room of heaven but the new earth of the resurrection."
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #125

    Jan 18, 2021, 04:32 PM
    I agree with that. It's a good point that can be read about in Rev. 21.
    Athos's Avatar
    Athos Posts: 1,108, Reputation: 55
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    #126

    Jan 18, 2021, 06:18 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by jlisenbe View Post
    I took that to mean you accept the Bible outside of the beginning of Genesis,
    You took it wrong - as I clearly explained in the previous reply to you.

    but you want to throw out all of Genesis so that's fine, The destruction of the Canaanites is till outside of Genesis. Do you accept that?
    *sigh* It never ends with you, does it? READ WHAT I WRITE. I accept the story being outside Genesis. So what?

    Long story made short, the Bible account, for you, is not accurate. So another aspect of the OT that you don't accept.
    BIG *SIGH* - "Susse Jesu, Bleiben Sie Mir". Read, read, read my previous post.

    Another non-answer. I never suggested Jesus said He would kill someone in that passage. He said they would die in their sins. I asked you what you thought of that. As usual, you do not answer.
    You implied it. It was referring to the topic of Jesus/God killing people sometime in wholesale lots. I told you what I thought of it. I can't be blamed if you can't read plain language.

    Your final paragraph is a flat out lie. I have never said that. If I had, you would have thrown up the quote.
    Your understanding is worse than even I thought. Let me explain - the meaning of words (yours, specifically) is easily construed by the message delivered (in this case, that Jesus/God are killers) and then recast to show the deeper meaning. Do you deny that Jesus/God is responsible for killing the Canaanites, Noah's neighbors, etc., etc.?

    As for throwing up a quote, that's another serious problem you have. Unless it's in the Bible, you don't believe it. You're not in the Bible. Do you believe in your own existence? Rhetorical, no reply necessary.

    As to the rest, it's a nice theory. But even if I accepted that, you would still render heaven temporary.
    Not so. The problem here is you simply don't understand the use of language.

    At any rate, perhaps the thousands of highly educated individuals who translated the several dozen translations that disagree with your idea would love to hear from you about that.
    Another (!) miss on your part. Your "dozens" translated from the same translation - Jerome's Vulgate. How difficult is that to understand?

    This is pointless. It's like nearly every other discussion on this site. No one ever persuades anyone else to change his/her mind. I have asked you three questions and you have declined to answer them
    Here is why discussion with you is pointless. You simply refuse to accept any answer that doesn't appeal to you. You call it a "non-answer". You make conversation/discussion impossible.

    You don't like the God of the OT. I don't think He cares if you approve or not.
    Now you speak for God. Of course, that's what you've been doing all along. You just don't realize it.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #127

    Jan 18, 2021, 06:32 PM
    You implied it.
    Nope. First you said I "claimed" it was true. "I sincerely hope you don't go around telling people about the killing monster you claim Jesus to be. It begs the question why you find it so necessary to see Jesus in that murderous light." When I called you on that one, then you want to retreat and claim I "implied" it. I suppose you will next claim you had a dream where I wrote it. Is there no end to it? Have you no shame?

    It was referring to the topic of Jesus/God killing people sometime in wholesale lots. I told you what I thought of it.
    Another nope. You never did.

    Your understanding is worse than even I thought. Let me explain - the meaning of words (yours, specifically) is easily construed by the message delivered (in this case, that Jesus/God are killers)
    Learn to read.

    As for throwing up a quote, that's another serious problem you have. Unless it's in the Bible, you don't believe it.
    I've never said that.

    You're not in the Bible. Do you believe in your own existence? Rhetorical, no reply necessary.
    And since I never said it, then this is simply ridiculous.

    Not so. The problem here is you simply don't understand the use of language.
    So you still fear answering. I'll ask once again. If aionios means, as you have said, something less than eternal when it describes hell, then it would also mean less than eternal when applied to heaven. Correct?

    Now you speak for God. Of course, that's what you've been doing all along. You just don't realize it.
    Complete absurdity.

    Rather frequently it is much better to simply admit you don't have answers. At least you would retain some honor in that.
    dwashbur's Avatar
    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #128

    Mar 1, 2021, 05:59 PM
    That is because "every other translation" follows Jerome's Vulgate.
    Not since Erasmus. In fact I only know of one non-Catholic translation that followed the Vulgate, except I can never remember whether it was Tyndale or Wyclif.

    Following the publication of Erasmus' Greek New Testament in 1516, future translations, at least Protestant ones, used a Greek text and rejected the Vulgate.

    -Regards,
    Sir Nitpick
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #129

    Mar 1, 2021, 08:26 PM
    -Regards,
    Sir Nitpick
    Nice touch of humor. It made me laugh out loud.
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    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #130

    Apr 13, 2021, 08:54 PM
    Thanks. Sir Reginald Cornelius Cadwaller Nitpick IV is my alter ego.
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #131

    Apr 14, 2021, 04:17 PM
    Why didn't he already know? Why didn't his father call him from the field

    Notice three things concerning this son. Number one; The discovery he hated to make:
    Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near  the house (look at what he heard) he heard celebration, it was celebration time- okay come on...and as he comes in from the field he hears the music and dancing. He would know that something special was going on -and on hearing the celebration he initiates an investigation. Verse 26: he calls one of the servants and he asks him specifically, what was going on? It's interesting that he doesn't go into his house...I mean why doesn't he just go in and find out? After all you're the son, maybe he was dirty and he didn't want to go in. We're not told but it surely is of significance that he decides that he isn't going in. Maybe he didn't like parties, maybe he had an inkling of what was taking place and he didn't like it and didn't want to discover it first hand. Nevertheless he conducts an investigation by asking the Servant.
    At least one scholar calls it the Parable of the Older Brother because he thinks that's the main focus of the story.
    It certainly looks that way, regarding the Pharisees. 
    Luke 15 is three stories of lostness. a lost coin, a lost sheep and actually two sons who were lost, and the Context (is set in verse 1-2 of the chapter. in between listening sinners and muttering Pharisees) of which Jesus tells these stories is clearly this, at the end of Chapter 14 Jesus has just said he who has ears to hear let him hear. 'and then we're immediately told who has ears to hear because it was the tax collectors and the sinners who were all gathering around to hear him. So Jesus says okay if you want to listen, listen and  here they are listening. The people we might least  expect to listen, were listening. The sinners, the irreligious, the unchurched, the outsiders, the bad guys. And the people we might most expect to listen, the religious leaders, the folks who were in their regular  activities faithful in their duties observable in their ceremonies, they weren't listening. In fact we are told they were muttering and they weren't just muttering anything they were saying under their breath to one another this man welcomes sinners and eats with them. Jesus was forcing them to acknowledge that there was great Joy over the discovery of the lost coin- there was great joy over the lost sheep, therefore there would be the same kind of Joy over the rediscovery of the lost Son. However the Pharisees were grudging in their appreciation. and the grudging nature of their reaction is represented in these final six or so verses. Where we see the response of the older Son.

    And WG, as for your friend's question about deathbed conversions, I think ClassyT could answer that one as well as I can: Grace.
    Don't get me started. 
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #132

    Apr 14, 2021, 04:27 PM
    Hope you guys are enjoying yourselves

    Pardon, I haven't read all the posts.

    I don't personally believe the younger son actually thought he was no longer "worthy". The younger son was just starving
    Let me ask a question; When did the boy get the robe and the ring and the sandals and the whole gear? In the pigsty?  No. -In a pigsty he came to his senses, on the road he said I have sinned and in the house he received his wardrobe. Beware of a Gospel which offers robes in a pigsty.


    It's not as if knowing about the party that mattered, the party should be expected in any case
    He completely missed or ignored all that he might have enjoyed of his Fathers provision.
    Look at the lovely way his Father speaks; my Son, you are always with me and everything I have is yours. But we 'had to celebrate' because this 'Brother of yours' (Not this Son of mine) but this brother of yours. (He's not going to let him get away with this talk), Referring to his brother as "his Fathers Son". This brother of yours was dead and is alive again, and he was lost and he was found. You see that the proud and the self righteous always feel that they're not treated as well as they deserve. When you or I are proud and full of ourselves we think that it ought to be better than it really is. The Son looked at the events as they transpired and he saw them in terms of rewards and he missed the point of love and of grace. In his warped thinking this was the way his mind worked. My brother splits with his portion of the inheritance. He fails to mention the fact that 2/3's comes to him and he's got rights to it right now, he's got run of the whole show but he doesn't mention that. His Brother split with a 3rd of the inheritance, he completely bums out in a far country, he dissipates his life he squanders his resources he ends up in a pigsty and then he comes back and what happens to him, the Father "rewards him. and so he says this is ridiculous if you want to talk rewards I should  be getting the rewards! I slaved in your house. I obeyed you all the time- he disobeyed you, he left and you reward him!!! That's not right...and that's not right. But it wasn't a reward. It was a must. It wasn't a reward for coming home. God doesn't reward us for becoming Christians. Do me a favor says God, and trust Jesus and I'll give you a lot of things because I'm really pleased. No, no he said; you need my Son, believe my Son and when you trust my Son lets party.  let's celebrate. this wasn't a reward. Notice verse 32 we 'had to celebrate' and be glad. We didn't have any option. This wasn't press button B this is the overflow of our lives. Your brother was dead now he is alive he was lost and was found. The Necessity of the celebration is revealed in the fact that God and heaven are concerned with it, when somebody is saved God and heaven rejoice together. 
    waltero's Avatar
    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #133

    Apr 14, 2021, 04:34 PM
    This is one of my fav Parables.

    I've been writing all day about this.
    Just one more

    (Shut it Athos ;-))

    Older Son: This character reminds us that religious behavior, if unaccompanied by a renewed heart and mind, is utterly bankrupt.

    The Older Brother didn't have any sympathy within himself. He fails to express it. 

    Who's the most Lost in this Story?
    There is no 'Most lost' in this story. There are no degrees of Lost, there's just Lost...it is all lost. And the Pharisees (like us) 13:44 didn't want to hear that. We want to live with the notion that there are degrees of lost.  And we have a message for the really lost ones, unlike us. When we can't express sympathy for those who have been found, we reveal the predicament of our own hearts. and in his response to the Father he makes it obvious that although he views himself as the Model Son, I've been slaving for you, I never disobeyed your orders I've always done everything right...He never understood what it was to be a Son. He never understood the heart of his father because he lived as a Son like a slave. Notice what he says, all these years I've been slaving for you and I've never disobeyed your orders.  just like the individualist;  I have always gone to church I have always kept the ten commandments. I am a good person, and yet you make a fuss about all these people getting saved...why don't you make a fuss about me! The spirit of the Pharisees creeps out in the heart of this man.  They adhered to the rules but they were inwardly estranged from God. So the Son boasts about himself; I slaved for you, I never disobeyed your orders, and then he blames his dad; you never gave me even a young goat. He's ticked about the fattened calf, maybe he had a plan for a party he was going to have with the calf, and now it's gone,, kaput. People are eating it in a party that he refuses not to attend. so he lays a guilt trip on his Father as if he could. He got a fattened calf and I never even got a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends.  Incidentally in the first part of the story the prodigal's friends were no help to him at all. Guess what, this guys' friends were no help to him at all either. Birds of a feather flock together. All the religious Joes and the Holy Willy's and the erudite Pharisees hang tough with one another planning their own parties and can't celebrate when a genuine work of grace takes place. Notice how he expresses his relationship with his brother, no relationship at all. "but when this Son of Yours."  He didn't say when my Brother came back. when this Son of yours who squandered your property, and then he begins to dress up the story, with prostitutes, where did he get that from? Who ever said that? Pharisees often complain loudest of the sins that they themselves would most like to commit 18:12The Older Son in the backyard of the father, had a heart that longed after that which his brother experienced, he had a nasty mind who was full of himself. He blamed everyone else. His years of obedience were grim duty and his long standing secret alienation from his father becomes perfectly obvious. 

    7 Pages WOW! I missed em all...thank God.
    Im Sure 6 of the 7 are Athos's and jlisenbe going at it...fun fun
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    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #134

    Apr 14, 2021, 11:48 PM
    Finally read the Posts on this thread.
    Like Athos, not enjoying much of my Babble- I Don't think I enjoy the two of you always going at it anymore. It is a never ending thing with the two of you.

    Dad told me to tell the both of you to knock it off!


    There we will go about the task of being fully human, as God intended. The Lord’s story will have come full circle, from creation to recreation: from Genesis, where one man and one woman were living and working and worshiping in Eden, to Revelation, where a resurrected humanity is living and working and worshiping all over God’s green and glorified earth.
    I understand it as God Creating something New. An entirely New Creation. Something we have no comprehension.
    Jesus might be the Only thing left of Humanity. We will be in the house of the Lord giving Praise to God, Always.
    I know, to most that might sounds Boring, But I felt it once and it is anything but. I don't think there will be any
    work to do? we are in the Rest period. :-)
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #135

    Apr 21, 2021, 06:25 AM
    It is interesting to me that, of the two sons, only the rebel ended up in the good graces of his father. It reminds me of the parable where two sons were told to go work in the fields. One initially refused, but then thought better of it and went. The other initially agreed, but then never went. Jesus said prostitutes and tax collectors were entering the Kingdom, but the pharisees and sadducees, despite their confidence to the contrary, were not.
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    dwashbur Posts: 1,456, Reputation: 175
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    #136

    May 1, 2021, 06:53 PM
    Verse 26: he calls one of the servants and he asks him specifically, what was going on? It's interesting that he doesn't go into his house...I mean why doesn't he just go in and find out? After all you're the son, maybe he was dirty and he didn't want to go in. We're not told but it surely is of significance that he decides that he isn't going in.
    Based on the context, I assume he's still a ways away from the house.
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    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #137

    May 1, 2021, 10:28 PM
    Based on the context, I assume he's still a ways away from the house.
    When he came near  the house (look at what he heard) he heard celebration, it was celebration time- okay come on...and as he comes in from the field he hears the music and dancing. He would know that something special was going on -and on hearing the celebration he initiates an investigation...he wouldn't go into the party! 

    The older brother was a Pharisee. The Pharisees knew Jesus was talking about them...the older brother was a good son...same as the Pharisees.
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    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #138

    May 2, 2021, 05:17 AM
    The older brother was a Pharisee.
    Or anyone else trusting in his own goodness with no real heart for the father.

    the older brother was a good son
    He was a "good son" in appearance only.
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    waltero Posts: 620, Reputation: 5
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    #139

    May 2, 2021, 03:12 PM
    The older brother was a good son. He was there, he did what he was told...he was a good son. The older brother failed to see that sin is not simply acts of wickedness and disobedience but sin is a heart of rebellion against the Father. The Prodigal Son came home, willing to become a slave in his Fathers house while his older brother was living as a slave in his fathers house. They both were in need of grace.
    jlisenbe's Avatar
    jlisenbe Posts: 5,019, Reputation: 157
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    #140

    May 2, 2021, 03:52 PM
    "...he was a good son...sin is a heart of rebellion against the Father."

    Those two statements concerning the older son cannot both be true. The older son cared nothing for his father's will. He seemed to be working largely for his own benefit.

    I think this parable (more of an allegory?) is very similar to the one Jesus told where the father told his two sons to go work in the field. One refused, but later rethought it and did his father's will. The other agreed, but he never went. The second one here would be the older son.

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