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jlisenbe · Aug 12, 2019, 02:48 PM

Revelation was written for a definite purpose. That's why the book almost didn't make the cut into the canon. In order to understand Revelation, you must understand apocalyptic literature. The author of Revelation admits to living during the very time his visions are concerned with, and in the last chapter his angelic guide forbids him from sealing his scroll 'because the time is near' and the events 'must soon happen'.

If you really believe Revelation has already happened, then I don't know what to tell you. Passages such as this have plainly not happened, and certainly not by A.D. 70. "9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice"

Evasiveness is, I believe, your middle name.

Wondergirl · Aug 12, 2019, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

If you really believe Revelation has already happened, then I don't know what to tell you. Passages such as this have plainly not happened, and certainly not by A.D. 70. "9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice"

Evasiveness is, I believe, your middle name.

It was a vision!!!!!!!!!!

jlisenbe · Aug 12, 2019, 03:37 PM

It was a vision!!!!!!!!!!

From God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You just have chosen not to believe it. There you are. I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it. You are free to believe what you wish. But as Elijah said, “How much longer will you waver, hobbling between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him!"

If the Bible is true, then follow it. If not, then throw it away.

Wondergirl · Aug 12, 2019, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

From God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are those from Athos' stash?

You just have chosen not to believe it. There you are. I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it. You are free to believe what you wish. But as Elijah said, “How much longer will you waver, hobbling between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him!"

Huh? How am I not following Him?

If the Bible is true, then follow it. If not, then throw it away.

"The Bible is true." That means you take every word literally?

jlisenbe · Aug 12, 2019, 04:22 PM

Huh? How am I not following Him?

I'm not suggesting you are not following Him. I am suggesting you are evasive when it comes to coming down on one side or the other of a scripture.

"The Bible is true." That means you take every word literally?

Of course not, but the whole "literal/metaphoric" argument can easily become nothing more than an excuse for trying to explain away those parts of the Bible that I personally don't care for. So for me to not take a passage literally, I need to have a really good reason.

paraclete · Aug 12, 2019, 04:30 PM

How you miss the point, as Paul told us all of scripture is useful for teaching, for rebuke so not one word can be ignored and it really doesn't matter whether it is literal or metaphoric it is something God wants us to know but the detail is his alone. I am reminded of a quote from Einstein "I just want to know the thoughts of God, everything else is just the details"

Wondergirl · Aug 12, 2019, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I'm not suggesting you are not following Him. I am suggesting you are evasive when it comes to coming down on one side or the other of a scripture.

I was very specific, not evasive.

Revelation tells us that Jesus Christ returns to earth, ushers in the Last Judgment, and establishes a new Heaven and a new Earth.

jlisenbe · Aug 12, 2019, 05:12 PM

Good. Then you accept the scripture. Wonderful, Wondergirl!

it really doesn't matter whether it is literal or metaphoric

Of course it does. It matters a great deal. When, for instance, Jesus says He is the door of the sheepfold, He does not literally mean He is a door or that we are literally sheep. And the passage we looked at in Revelation is another prime example.

Athos · Aug 12, 2019, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Truth. You plainly don't. Now Athos needs to answer.

Athos answered immediately after you. See post 51.

Now back to the question - the mentally disabled adult ??

paraclete · Aug 12, 2019, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Of course it does. It matters a great deal. When, for instance, Jesus says He is the door of the sheepfold, He does not literally mean He is a door or that we are literally sheep. And the passage we looked at in Revelation is another prime example.

Ok you don't want to be a sheep led by the good shepherd Jesus and yet he tells us my sheep hear my voice. I am one of his sheep because if the Lamb of God sees me as a sheep then a sheep I am. As I said it doesn't matter I am what God wants me to be. Bah, Bah, Bah!

talaniman · Aug 13, 2019, 10:31 AM

So you're a sheep, JL isn't, or is and doesn't know it.

tomder55 · Aug 13, 2019, 01:33 PM

can't help myself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOaSa78_NM0

jlisenbe · Aug 13, 2019, 06:38 PM

Athos answered immediately after you. See post 51.

Now back to the question - the mentally disabled adult ??

This was your reply. "Revelation is a literary gem. Sure I accept it. It's full of colorful language, metaphors and symbols, angels and anti-Christs, lakes of fire, books with names written in them, etc., etc., etc." You and WG must have gone to the same school of evasive answers.

As to the mentally disabled, I don't know of any scripture which addresses it, so I would agree with Abraham's observation. "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

Wondergirl · Aug 13, 2019, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

This was your reply. "Revelation is a literary gem. Sure I accept it. It's full of colorful language, metaphors and symbols, angels and anti-Christs, lakes of fire, books with names written in them, etc., etc., etc." You and WG must have gone to the same school of evasive answers.

What part of Athos' response is evasive?

As to the mentally disabled, I don't know of any scripture which addresses it, so I would agree with Abraham's observation. "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”

And JL slaps responders down for being evasive....

jlisenbe · Aug 13, 2019, 06:58 PM

What part of Athos' response is evasive?

A simple yes or no would have been nice. Instead we get a long discussion of literary gems, angels, and lakes of fire.

And JL slaps responders down for being evasive....

I answered honestly. Do you know of a scripture that addresses the judgement of the mentally disabled?

Wondergirl · Aug 13, 2019, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

A simple yes or no would have been nice. Instead we get a long discussion of literary gems, angels, and lakes of fire.

Apparently, you haven't read the book.

I answered honestly. Do you know of a scripture that addresses the judgement of the mentally disabled?

"A simple yes or no would have been nice."

jlisenbe · Aug 13, 2019, 07:13 PM

Apparently, you haven't read the book.

Only a few dozen times.

"A simple yes or no would have been nice."

Go back and read the question. "Now back to the question - the mentally disabled adult ??" That does not call for a yes or no answer. If you believe that all questions should ultimately be answered with scripture, then I'm saying I don't know other than to say the Judge of all the earth will do what is right. So I would be happy to accept an "I don't know" answer when it is appropriate, but to answer with long, indecisive verbiage is called being evasive.

Wondergirl · Aug 13, 2019, 08:06 PM

Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Go back and read the question. "Now back to the question - the mentally disabled adult ??" That does not call for a yes or no answer. If you believe that all questions should ultimately be answered with scripture, then I'm saying I don't know other than to say the Judge of all the earth will do what is right. So I would be happy to accept an "I don't know" answer when it is appropriate, but to answer with long, indecisive verbiage is called being evasive.

#47 as a followup to #44 by Athos: Ah, at least that's progress of a sort. Let's go a step further. How about others who may not be guilty of sin - say, an adult who is mentally disabled and doesn't know right from wrong.

jlisenbe · Aug 14, 2019, 04:15 AM

#47 as a followup to #44 by Athos: Ah, at least that's progress of a sort. Let's go a step further. How about others who may not be guilty of sin - say, an adult who is mentally disabled and doesn't know right from wrong.

I'm not sure what your point is.

To be clear on the issue of being evasive, I try to give a firm yes or no. If I'm not sure, I'll say I'm not sure. If my answer is conditional, I'll state the conditions, but I hope I don't cloak my reply in a fog of words which have no function other than to "muddy the waters".

Revelation was written for a definite purpose. That's why the book almost didn't make the cut into the canon.

Are you back to the idea that Revelation was intended to be some sort of secret code?

talaniman · Aug 14, 2019, 11:29 AM

Dufus sycophant ultra conservative Ken Cuccinelli said the immigration poem on the statue of liberty was only meant for Europeans. Is that true or is that blatant racism right in front of our faces?

https://time.com/5651068/trump-immig...ue-of-liberty/